I just like playing with data so more just to learn anything specific(<2.5w/kg so not going to ever race), hense waiting for black friday. Was just thinking listening to what others want to know of WKO5 would make it easier to pick up what I should look at more
The goal is to ride above the long duration target for 26:23. The goal isnāt to ride exactly at 183w.
Garbage date in = garbage data out. Wk05 works marvelously well with good data which means max efforts.
This is explained in the WKO5 videos.
Yes, there are times when I give WKO plenty of max efforts, and times when I donāt. I own one of Timās plans and know his position on scheduling a test every X weeks. To your point, the sentence after āeven if I followed WKO5āsā has āI really need to do a hard ~30 minute effort.ā
WKO5 is still useful even during times when the model is not feed.
100%.
WKO is great even when the model isnāt fed - PROVIDED YOUR FTP IS UP TO DATE. If your FTP is wrong, it throws off a lot of the CTL/TSS metrics if you care about those, as well as TIS and impulse metrics, etc.
So a lot like TR, if you keep your FTP correct, WKO is wonderful. But you donāt have to keep your mFTP updated to get good use out of it.
I do a baseline test, and then Iāll populate testing about once every six weeks in times when Iām not expecting massive changes in numbers. When you have a good FTPā¦ good enough is good enough. When you suspect a change, thatās a great time to test.
Iāve recently delved into coding, starting with simple things like custom time frames for analysis, to finally getting my own chart and tabular data for EF and Decoupling for certain tagged rides down. That one took me longer than I would like to admitā¦ and I need to dedicate more time to it. Next I need to be able to put an EF trend line on that same graph, but Iāve not sorted through that one yet.
1 Like
its worth watching timās more recent series on this, basically starting with how to properly test to build out a base PDC, and then how to do residual testing and maintaining the curve.
THe next thing youāll want to watch is the āoptimized intervalsā youtube, thats basically 98% of the data you need. Itāll give you the +/-10w watt target and time target to be doing your intervals at (and rest) to get maximum benefit for the zones you are trying to grow, in your case likely extensive aerobic.
WIth winter coming i cant wait fort his thread and the SST thread to spool back up again.
relevant videos;
Maintaining PDC (testing structure is @ 11min); Best Practices in Maintaining the Power Duration Model - YouTube
Individualizing your Training (optimized intervals 24min mark): Master WKO5 Individualizing Your Training Part 2 - YouTube
I just donāt love optimized intervals for muchā¦ but weāll see. I think theyāre a decent starting point but especially threshold and sub you have to progress them and WKO isnāt going to tell you how to go about doing that.
Itās interesting because I keep going back and forth with my own training with respect to extensive sweet spot vs extensive threshold. Best results Iāve personally had came from extensive SST followed by VO2 followed by threshold/race specific, but with TTs in my future, threshold + high volume seems the way to go rather than extensive SST. Then again, Iāll end up doing plenty of tempo around then so itās all basically the same.
See this is why coaches need coaches. 
4 Likes
Optimized intervals breakdown is covered in that YouTube and how to scale it if needed.
Regarding extensive vs. Intensive; I see the same as you, and kolie Moore was saying the same recently. Extensive plus vo2 is my new jam
1 Like
Yeah, no question extensive works for me, as it did when I was running and even in my swimming too. Question is which intensity to go with? Thereās not THAT much difference between 90% and 95, 97, 100% in terms of the physiological benefit. Obviously you can sustain the sweet spot work longer, but I think Iām going to do my extensive progression at threshold and just add zone 2 volume to those workouts to keep total work up, and see how that goes for me. Having never had the time to train that way before now, itāll be an interesting self-experiment, if nothing elseā¦ And since I started base so early this year, I can always āstep backā and do a SST progression for a month or so around December if Iām not happy with the threshold progress.
Sorry to get so self-absorbed hereā¦ I can see both ways being viable for me - my interest is road racing and eventually getting back to long-course triathlon, both would point more toward a SST progressionā¦ but I want to race TTs this year too which means lots of time at threshold. So I probably canāt make a bad choice.
1 Like
I followed the Steve Neal style extensive tempo ( built up to 4x30) this winter and had my best performances and highest FTP so far this past spring.
2 Likes
Yeah, Nealās style of tempo (HR-capped) will make appearances in my longer riding. Iām seeing my EF rise and decoupling come down in my longest rides, so Iām going to start adding time in the hills which will amount to AeT riding and then eventually Tempo in relatively large doses coming up in the fall. Really good training when thereās no racing around, but can also be highly fatiguing when combined with other work.
Part of the challenge with my personal training is Iām trying to push a large increase in volume (from 8-10h/wk to 12-18h/wk) alongside continuing to train with some intensity, and trying to do that without falling apart. So Iām erring on the side of keeping things easy (lots of time in low-to-mid Z2) until Iām better adapted to the duration in the saddle.
Iām always suspicious of āmagic soundingā prescriptions - that I need to find the lactate balance point and then somehow use that to do HR capping with tempo.
It sounds vaguely like what I discovered (2016-2017) works for me - low cadence climbing - and what my coach calls Muscle Tension Intervals (search āFasCat MTIā and it should be first result).
Six weeks ago I did 4 hours of low cadence (mid 60s) climbing at ridiculously low power, around .56 or .58 IF with torque around what I usually do on 2 hour endurance Tuesday. Despite similar torque, my HR was upper zone1 and a full 14bpm lower than 2 hour Tuesday. Within 10 days saw adaptations that have slowly increased.
This week I did 2.5 hours of low cadence climbing (66rpm average) at a higher zone2 power, roughly .7 IF. My HR was firmly in my personal upper zone2, same as 2 hour Tuesday, but torque was what I would see if doing 90% FTP at 85rpm.
Experience shows that this type of work delivers repeatable adaptations for me. Might not work for you. Loose HR cap at top of my HR-zone2, honestly its just keeping it aerobic and low cadence. Pretty easy to do that solo on long 4-6% climbs, but climbing at 2W/kg makes them slow climbs so harder to do in a group and they are Strava ego busters putting me at the bottom of leaderboards.
This is part of building my base to do 3 hours of upper tempo in early 2023. Iām betting this type of base work - endurance climbing - will help me fight aging declines and post some personal bests in 2023.
Iām sure aerobic low cadence climbing might sound like the āmagic prescriptionā I described above ha ha, but seriously all it requires is a heart rate monitor, cadence sensor, and power meter. And a little digging into efforts at endurance, tempo, threshold, and over threshold.
Back to WKO - this type of training is off the PDC modelās radar as far as I know. One thing I do is have torque displayed for quick review after all rides. And low-intensity training adaptations - I get better results from doing a Kolie Moore Aerobic TIS moving average on my Garmin aerobic scores than I do on my WKO Aerobic TIS scores (even when PDC is well fed). So I log Garmin aerobic/anaerobic after every ride using TrainingPeaksā metrics (Abdomen inches and Glute inches), and then modified the Aerobic TIS chart to use these instead.
Hope that helps somebody experiment and find out if it works (or not) for you.
1 Like
iām not sure what YOUR definition of āextensive progressionā is here, but itās not how either Tim Cusick or Kolie Moore are using the term in their videos/pods, its not how WKO is breaking down, and its not how I was referencing it.
Their delienation seems to be that Extensive ends up being more SST, intensive is working right around your FTP wattage.
Regarding your comment of;
Thereās not in terms of adaption, but there is in terms of fatigue. Hence my earlier comment, and KMās Watt Doc #39 commentary about working more at the āextensiveā level, rather than trying to push right at threshold. You simply can do MORE work, for longer, with LESS fatigue and required recovery. When you put this into the context that the biggest driver of growth is consistency and volume, being able to do more and recover from it is going to help you out more in the long run.
Nowā¦I will caveat all of this with you need to eventually do some specific work, especially if you are doing TTās and need to be able to ride at or near threshold, but in an overall training plan that is a relatively small % of your overall workouts that occurs closer to your races.
edit:
I will leave the link to the KM watts doc #39 I referenced above. Itās a worthwhile listen and goes into detail why āriding at thresholdā can really be a bit of a knife edge excercise.
3 Likes
No.
Per the optimized interval chart this is the breakdown:
I guess Kurt could have extensive mean whatever he wants, but its not how anyone else seems to be using it.
Not really following all the points, but one of Timās more recent WKO5 webinars had this with respect to training FTP:
Taken from the slides of this webinar:
and that page includes a link to a PDF of the slides.
2 Likes
and a few more slides:
and extensive (red) vs intensive (purple) example for someone with 35 minute TTE:
Thatās Coach Tim Cusickās opinion and concept.
1 Like
Yeah you guys have looped around all of it. My take:
Extensive means at or below threshold extending TIZ. Power or zone target then spells out how much time you aim for and how aggressive your progression is. You can do just about anything āextensivelyāā¦ what we are talking about is extensive threshold or extensive sweet spot. Either way, extending TTE is the goal of extensive work.
Intensive means working at powers above threshold for necessarily shorter time periods. This could be 4x8s or 5x5s or it could be over/unders ā¦ it could be a lot of things. The focus is not extending TIZ; itās doing more power.
As I interpret things, WKO shows extensive being at or below threshold - you look at the power it suggests and the zones and it says āFTPā.
@RONDAL I listen to Kolieās podcasts usually multiple times. I recall in the most recent discussion about extensive work and why 2x20 isnāt enough, he specifically mentioned doing extensive threshold progressions, and also mentioned āor sweet spot if youāre one of those guysā (paraphrasing). My understanding of his extensive work is 95-97% extending interval time out to 55-60min total (or more!) and then evaluating what comes next for the athlete. Often he will see an FTP increase during that time for newer athletes, and that will reset TTE to start a new extensive progression.
He also specifically mentioned using sweet spot during racing season as it incurs less fatigue and allows you to maintain TTE without incurring as much fatigue when doing hard race or race prep efforts as well.
I donāt intend to put words in anyoneās mouth with this stuff, thatās my interpretation.
Iāve done extensive sweet spot progressions the last two years and I think they work. I have NOT done as much extensive threshold progression work (at 95-100%) in my past.
My long work is generally low power right now, and I like the balance of working a bit harder on my hard days by progressing at threshold. Thus far, Iām recovering well and responding to the training.
One consideration for others is how much time you have. Some people canāt ride 2hrs during the week, which makes a 3x30 at 90% a non-starter if theyāre also doing long stuff on the weekend.
As I started adding more AeT or tempo work to my long rides, I may drop back to a SST progression to manage fatigue. Weāll see. It may be that I donāt need to do that. Iāve got a good feel for my threshold and Iām not yet feeling cooked from conservatively pushing threshold TIZ while more aggressively pushing overall saddle time.
So, Iām not trying to line up with Tim or Kolie. I do take what they say and learn from it because of everyone out there, I think they really know what theyāre doingā¦ but Iām not trying to be either one of those guys. I also donāt think Iām misinterpreting what they say, but I could be wrong about that.
4 Likes
Re: low cadence work, there are a lot of different takes on it, from people who prescribe it every single week at varying intensity to those who eschew it almost entirely (KM would be one from what I have read and heard). I have low cadence tempo planned in my next blockā¦ so weāll see.
Kolieās aerobic and anaerobic impulse charts are brilliant, IMHO, particularly useful with long history of training to look at.
Iām a fan of stuff that works. For whatever reason, low cadence climbing works for me and produces results 
1 Like
I am spending a lot more time at <80rpm than in past years, largely because torque generation is a weakness of mine, whereas leg speed is generally a strength.
For many of my athletes, leg speed is more limiting, so I focus on speed work for them. I do a lot of leg speed stuff in my warmups with the occasional ramp or spin up session as well.
1 Like