How to tell if FTP is correct without taking anything resembling an FTP test

You could get a free intervals.icu account and let it suck in the data from Strava. It will calculate ftp based on any intervals with sustained power it can find in the work you’ve done including that ramp test, an exact time/power isn’t needed. I’ve always found a close tally between the official ramp test results and the intervals calculated ftp so pretty confident in the ftp updates it recommends. If you want to use that ramp test ftp data then you could crop the last section off and let intervals do its thing

2 Likes

When I want to know/confirm my actual ftp and not pay for a lab test, an over/under session like palisade tells me a lot. If I really want confirmation, I’ll do a 45 minute test right where I think my ftp is. This is to figure out physiological ftp, which is basically where your body can process lactate at the same rate it’s producing it. Ftp is often miscategorized as 1 hour power, but it’s just not. Some people don’t have the endurance to hold ftp for 20 minutes and some can hold it over an hour. Ftp may or may not be a good number to base your training targets on.

TR(and many others) use ftp as the basis of their training targets, but it’s an imperfect approach. That doesn’t mean it’s bad, but there is a lot of guesstimating going on. Also, the ramp test isn’t testing ftp, it’s backing into that number based on a percentage of map. So, basically, the ramp test is closer to a vo2 max test and you are setting your training zones based on your vo2 max abilities more than your ftp (but we all think it’s based on ftp because that’s the number spit out by the ramp test). It all works fairly well if you are a “typical “ athlete, not so much if your physiology leans dramatically in one direction or the other.

For the op, I’d recommend not overthinking it. Use the ftp the ramp test gave you and see where it goes. If you struggle with workouts, cut the intensity a bit. Nothing you are going to do over the course of a couple weeks matters that much. The adaptations happen over months and years.

2 Likes

I hardly test at all and use RPE/HR of workouts to judge whether FTP is correct. Here’s a couple easy markers to help calibrate FTP

  1. During sweet spot workouts, HR should be near but below threshold heart rate (unless it’s very hot in your environment). Breath should be controlled and not audible gasping (e.g. below VT2 which is closely correlated with LT2=FTP). You should be able to do keep going at the end of your intervals and need little recovery between intervals.

  2. Over/unders at 95/105% are a great check if FTP is right. You should see HR flatline if not drop slightly on the unders, and it should feel sustainable. The overs should feel hard like you are straining above comfort level to push the power, heart rate should rise but only by a few beats (e.g. not skyrocket into Z5). Breathing rate should increase and possibly become audible, but not gasping like an all-out VO2 effort. Legs should feel ok after 1 set of OUs but feel progressively more heavy after 3+.

1 Like

intervals.icu estimated FTP has always been within 1 or 2 pts of my Ramp Test FTP.

3 Likes

But isn’t that because intervals.icu uses the ramp test results to determine eFTP?

Kinda, if you do a ramp test Intervals will look at that data as well so there’s a good chance that will be the same effort Intervals uses for its effort (unless you’ve been doing lots of all out efforts…).

How Intervals works:

But I usually find my Intervals FTP before the ramp test isn’t a lot different to the FTP that comes out of the test, provided I’ve been doing hard efforts.

1 Like

Reading most of your comments, especially the one where you say the 8-minute test grossly overestimates your FTP, and your feeling “wrecked” after most workouts is an indication that you’r FTP is set too high. Your FTP is the power you can sustain for 1 hour. Period.

If you can’t complete the workout called Lamarck, as someone suggested, then your FTP is set too high. 40-mins at 100% of FTP with 2-mins recovery after 10 minutes should be doable at the correct FTP.

Sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts.

Edit: What was your FTP before your last ramp test?

2 Likes

Not necessarily - FTP is a just proxy for lactate threshold which can be anywhere from 40-70 minutes depending on the athlete, and is used because accurately testing lactate threshold is difficult/impossible without lab testing How To Test Threshold Power (FTP) | Stages Cycling

FTP is just a relatively easy to access number to set training zones with - if you can complete your e.g., 3x10 @ FTP workouts successfully it doesn’t really matter whether you can actually sustain that FTP number for precisely 60 minutes or not.

I do agree that this person’s FTP is set too high though - if you know you over-test on the 8 minute and are getting destroyed by the workouts using that FTP, there’s only really one answer :slight_smile:

6 Likes

Just to clarrify something, he didn’t say he knew he over tested in the 8 minute test, he said he didn’t want to do it as he’d seen a video where they said it over estimated

It struck me that he just didn’t want to do a FTP test, which is fine, just my experiance (I have a week mind) is that mind is very good at protecting you, have a hard session, ftp must be to high, reduce until SS becomes Threshold

Ah, yes, sorry.

I don’t know that one random video is a good sample :smiley:

Sorry, wasn’t picking on you, just felt that original comment showed some insight

My personnal take on it (something I picked up from listerning to Joanna Rowsell), is none of them are perfect, so do them all, I under perform in ramps, but I still do them, compare them to last time, and then ignore the result, but maybe make a small adjuestment, I tend to follow the 8 and 20

Doing one, every 4 / 6 weeks, could just end up with you training to do that FTP test (just my take)

If you want to use TR, you need a proper FTP test. If you don’t want to do a FTP test, ever, use XERT!!!

if you don’t want to do an FTP test, but want to know your FTP, just go out and ride as hard as you can for an hour.

That way you get an FTP with no 20-minute or ramp test.

While I agree (relating to the proxy for lactate threshold), I also disagree.

FTP, as defined by the experts, is:

  • “the greatest mean maximal power you can currently produce for one hour”. Joe Friel

  • “the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour. When power exceeds FTP, fatigue will occur much sooner, whereas power just below FTP can be maintained considerably longer”. Andy Coggan

Anyway, that’s a different debate. The OP mostly likely has a higher than actual FTP.

1 Like

I don’t think that’s correct, you are conflating a description of what FTP is with a definition. Here is a quote from Chapter 4 of Friel’s Training Bible that I assume you refer to (I only have the Kindle version, so I can’t give you a page number; emphasis mnine):

I could similarly quote Coggan.

Both authors define FTP as a measurement (of a proxy of) AnT (anearobic threshold) in a “field test”. They distinguish between AnT and FTP because of the way they are measured, e. g. proper lactate tests in a lab vs. 20- or 8-minute steady state effort. That seems perhaps persnickety, but scientifically, it makes sense.

I think “hour power” is a just a description (as opposed to a definition) that comes from time trialists who are indeed able to hold roughly FTP for the duration of a 40k TT (although also here there is an element of pacing). Without specific training you won’t be able to hold your FTP for one hour.

6 Likes

Yeah the “1 hour power” thing has always been misunderstood as some sort of rigid standard.

I think it’s useful to compare it to running. A “threshold” running pace is often described as about what you could do for an hour. But any coach would tell you that the newer/less fit you are, the smaller that amount of time should be. For very experienced runners, it’s an hour or more. For less experienced runners, it’s more like 20-30 minutes. Why I think it’s a useful comparison is that almost anyone can ride a bike at some amount of power for an hour, but your average person off the street can’t run for an hour. So if you have someone who can run say, 8 minute miles for 30 minutes, but quickly drops off after that to a near-walking pace so that they finish the hour at an 11 minute pace, they’re simply never going to run hard enough to gain fitness if you put their 20 minute threshold runs at that 11 minute pace, and everything else slower. When I up my mileage running I can easily measure that I can hold a threshold-type pace for much longer, but there’s still a pace where I start to fatigue much more quickly.

Time to exhaustion and functional thresholds are two different things. It’s easier to think it should be an hour if you’re more experienced and have a larger aerobic base. But when you’re designing a training regimen, identifying that point where you begin to fatigue much more quickly is more useful than determining how much power you can hold for exactly 60 minutes.

2 Likes

Absolutely agreed.
And if you want to ride for a long time at a high percentage of your FTP, then TTE is an important metric in addition to your FTP. But TTE need not be important for your style of riding, e. g. if you are a crit racer.

Exactly, because even if your goal is to extend your TTE, that doesn’t mean your training plan looks like “ride 30 minutes at power x, then ride 32 minutes at power x, …, ride 60 minutes at power x.”

Since your 60 minute power is likely different, lower than your FTP, using your 60-minute power to scale your workouts will also not accrue the intended training benefits. Over-unders might be under-unders, i. e. you won’t teach your muscles to become better at getting rid of accumulated lactate in your muscles.

That’s exactly how I think about it. And I think over-unders are the right test. If your recovering, however slightly, at .95, after getting closer to a blowup at 1.05, your ftp is about right.

1 Like

Just a comment on the hour power thing: Coggan has made is super clear on various forums (in which people have loved picking fights with him regarding FTP) that it is not one hour power and has defined it as more like 40-70min power (not sure if the upper end is correct, but he def goes as low as 40mins). I’d also look up Coggan’s seven deadly sins, he does not really like the 20min test, that was his co-author Hunter Allen’s thing

1 Like

Try doing a 2x20’ at 95% and see if your power to heart rate ratio drops by more than 5% between the front and back 10 minutes of any of the repeats. This drop is marked as Pw:Hr in TrainingPeaks Premium and as D on intervals.icu, or you can calculate it yourself.

If your heart rate drift relative to power is more than 5%, your FTP is set too high. If it’s like 2% or less, it could be set too low, or you could be lacking in strength endurance.

1 Like