FTP seems to be too high

[Fight_Koester]

Hello!
Starting with SST1 I did a ramp test that gave me an FTP of 262. After the first three workouts I had to admit, that this cannot be right since I had to cancel the Mount Field and the Ericsson Workouts after 3/4 completely worn out.
So I did a one hour 20 Minute FTP Test with a result of 254. Now the workouts can be accomplished but e.g. in the Reinstein or Glassy (both first week workouts) I had to do two 5 second stops in the last interval and would consider the effort exhausting (9/10).
I am a bit uncertain whether it is ok to train further on this level of exhaustion or should I just drop the FPT manually? I mean for me it is ok to have a 9/10 and to have a few seconds of break in the workouts but I am not sure if this is the way the workouts are meant to be.

There is one other thing. Why seems the FTP to high for me in the workouts at all? Can that be explained?

Warm regards and thanks in advance!

[JonasP]

In short, you are “too strong” at anaerobic compared to aerobic efforts. I’m the same, here’s how I plan to get around it.

Lowering intensity vs setting FTP lower

After a few months of training indoors and with TR I have learned that I “overtest” a bit with the ramp test. I don’t want to change methods to 20-min test or 2x8 min. I have figured out that for Sweet Spot and threshold lowering the intesity of the workout to 98% works great. For Vo2 type stuff on the other hand it seems like I could/should increase it to 102-105% to get the intended effects. My question now is what to do after my next ramp test that is coming up? Should I lower the ftp or…

[Keoni]

It sounds like you overachieve on the ramp and twenty minute protocol which is not uncommon. If I were you, I would move to a Kolie Moore testing protocol.

For what it’s worth, sweetspot workouts like Glassy should feel somewhat challenging but never be borderline hard.

A good indicator for how a workout should feel like is the IF factor. My perception is that everything below 0.8 is very doable on any given day. The 0.8 to 0.85 range feels like work though is still very doable. 0.85 to 0.9 feels hard and requires some focus. It might not be doable when fatigue is too high or you are having a bad day. Everything above 0.9 upwards to 1.0 is hard and failure is always an option.

[Cleanneon98]

@Keoni

My perception is that everything below 0.8 is very doable on any given day. The 0.8 to 0.85 range feels like work though is still very doable. 0.85 to 0.9 feels hard and requires some focus.

Generally yes except the workouts with big breaks between intervals or a long steady interval at the end. Something like Baird +6 has the IF averaged down with that big block at the end, but the IF for the earlier work blocks is way higher than what the description would make one think (for this one the IF for the 5 vo2 blocks with their mini breaks is actually 1.03)

[AJS914]

@Fight_Koester

There is one other thing. Why seems the FTP to high for me in the workouts at all? Can that be explained?

As stated, it’s your higher anaerobic contribution. Another way to do it is to hone it on your anaerobic percentage and then take the proper percentage from your 20 minute power.

For example WKO models my anaerobic contribution for 20 minute power at 6% so my FTP is only 94% of my 20 minute rather than the typical average of 95%.

Now that I’ve tried the Kolie Moore baseline test I’ve decided that I like that way better than the 20 minute test even though the baseline test is going to be 35-40 minutes. The first 10 minutes @ 92-95% is a nice warmup and not too difficult. The next 15 at the target FTP really lets you know if you are above or below your FTP. I mean if you are struggling for 15 minutes at FTP then you know you are failing. If it’s ‘yeah, I got this’ then you know you can push through and then increase power a bit until you fail. It’s also a good TTE test.

I never know how to pace the 20 minute test. Same power, a little above FTP, for 20 minutes? That’s hard. Or, start a little low, get towards target FTP, and then crush the last five minutes with whatever you can do. It doesn’t feel like a real TTE test.

[Keoni]

Good point. Also longer workouts can be quite hard even though their IF is low (eg 6 hours Z2 on the turbo).

[Cleanneon98]

Facts, I did Mount Alice indoors and the next day my legs felt like I rode a 6 hour hilly century outside

[Fight_Koester]

Thanks for your answers! I will definitely check the Kolie Moore and consider to drop my FTP a bit like the 2%. I mean if this works for me I can apply this rule of thumb to each 20 Min ftp this is coming. Just the Ramp Test is giving me an imense to high FTP so I will not apply this one anymore.

[ibcoleman]

@Keoni

If I were you, I would move to a Kolie Moore testing protocol.

I’m curious: if I test high on ramp, what’s the benefit of doing a different testing protocol rather than just taking a smaller percentage of max 1-minute power?

[AJS914]

That’s a good strategy if you can hone in on the correct percentage.

[ibcoleman]

I test high on the Ramp test and find 73% of max 1-minute works perfectly for threshold workouts whereas I need to drop subsequent vo2max workouts to 98% intensity. Just wondering if maybe I’m missing out on something valuable by taking the cowards way out…

[Keoni]

Having a protocol that works. Taking a percentage won’t work indefinitely as the relationship (percentage) of VO2max and FTP will change. KM would also give you a TTE.

[team_bunty]

I’m not certain this is an issue of anaerobic contribution or testing protocol.

The ramp test is one thing, but the 20-minute test still overestimated your FTP. This test takes 95% of your 20 minute average power.

How is that you’re able to average 266 watts for 20 minutes, but then fail Reinstein, 3x12min over-unders at 244w/266w? This workout should be a cakewalk compared to the effort you put out in your 20 minute FTP test.

It sounds like you might be crapping out due to other reasons. Are you fueling your workouts with energy drinks and gels? How’s your cooling situation? What kind of trainer are you using? Are you active in other sports and/or weight training? How’s your sleep?

[Fight_Koester]

That is what I am wondering about as well.

1. I am not fueling during workouts at all. Just drink water.
2. I ride under a roof window and open and close the window if needed.
3. I am not doing other sports
4. Sleep is ok (due to the children I wake up like 2-3 times at night for a few minutes.)

[Keoni]

@Fight_Koester

• I am not fueling during workouts at all. Just drink water.
• I ride under a roof window and open and close the window if needed.
• I am not doing other sports
• Sleep is ok (due to the children I wake up like 2-3 times at night for a few minutes.)

Fueling might play a role. Perhaps try to make sure that you do your workouts not completely starved. Also consume some simple carbs on the bike (see forum for details).

Cooling is a another factor. Opening a window won’t do the trick. You want to have air moving over your body in order to get rid of the heat. In other words, get a proper ventilator.

Sleep and stress (eg other sports or work) I wouldn’t discount either. They play a huge role. Personal anecdote: I recently got my first kid, bought a house, got promoted, etc. So sleep is limited and I wake up multiple times per night. Best I can now get away with is 80% of the volume I used to do.

While all these factors have an impact on your training they also add up. So poor nutrition, poor cooling, poor sleep, and high stress can derail you big time.

[Carbman]

Yeah. Get two fans for cooling (or one really big one) and you will be crushing those workouts!

[Fight_Koester]

Perfect. I already organized a fan and put some carbs in the back pocket. I also dropped the ftp by 2%. Let us see how this will work out today. Thanks for your support and to bring the surrounding conditions a bit more into awareness.

@Keoni: Congrats for the birth of your first child!

[Cleanneon98]

I may fall into the same camp, my personal target on ramp tests is always 20:00 for work time which always gives an FTP boost. Mentally I often want to quit around 19:00 but I know I’m only 30 seconds away from break even and push through then get a second mental wind and can usually get to around 20:00. I think this is a problem because while I’m not letting my mind tell me when to stop, I feel like maybe I’m using my mind to push me past where I should stop.

That being said, I think it depends on which workouts you struggle with. My personal strength is sweet spot like Antelope or Tray Mountain and weakness is over unders like McAdie or Pierce just because it has me in a different part of my powerband which is not “tuned” as well, even though I likely overtest on the ramp. However I don’t mess with the numbers or intensity of the workouts anymore, especially the ones I struggle on. To me turning down intensity is a bit of a cowards way out, and not a good setup for the following week when you’re doing the same workout but harder (such as Thursday’s in my short power build with Pierce, Whiteface, Mitchell).

If I turn down the workout intensity then what happens next week is I have a harder workout and remember “man, I couldn’t even finish last week at 100% there’s no way I can do this” and I’ve already failed in my mind before I’m even tired. I was listening to Arnold giving a speech about how people like to have a plan B which implies acceptance of failure, which can lead to failure itself. “Humans operate better when there is no plan B safety net”, so I just work as hard as I can to finish the workout at 100%, if anything I will stop it early at the prescribed intensity so the following week I can say to myself “I cut last week short but today I’m going to make it further”

[Fight_Koester]

I just did finish Ericsson with two fans no FTP drop, some wine gum and it went super good (like a 7/10). This is the first time I trained indoor with fans and now I can define better the feeling of overheating that I have without it. Ericsson has a higher IF than Glassy. So I cant wait for Carson and Tunemah at the end of the week to see if this adjustments were sufficient.
Thanks!

[henrymorecroft]

nothing wrong with that at all if it works for you. It’s about having an estimate which adequately benchmarks my intervals, doesn’t matter how you come by that. The important thing it it’s consistent so you can compare results over time. Sounds like yours is so don’t sweat it. People obsess over having the ‘correct’ FTP estimate, if you really want to measure it go ahead and do a hour test otherwise there’s always a healthy margin of error.

Seen one or two comments about how your VO2 max vs aerobic engine might contribute differently over time etc. so the 74% could change. Sure that might happen, but you can adjust the workouts accordingly. Are you really going to miss out much as a result of those adaptations? Almost certainly not.