Bonking (?) on Andrews every time

So it is, apologies. I only saw the shortened list of plans that Andrews was included in, I should’ve looked harder!

Here are my two attempts.

The only thing I can think of here is that maybe the cadence was too low on one of them.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/brutalbear/rides/62236686
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/brutalbear/rides/62387256

@kurt.braeckel has the answer for you I think

You’re using ERG mode and doing an ILT drill without cutting the power in half

To be more specific - if your target wattage is 300 watts and you’re doing an ILT (unclipping one foot) you should be doing 150 watts, not 300. Take it out of ERG mode if you’re doing these drills

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Workout instructions are to not unclip but simply focus on one leg, which is what I prefer. Hmmmm.

Ah, so you’re talking about single leg FOCUS drills, rather than isolated leg training (ILT). My mistake. My best guess on the limited information available is still rooted in the execution of those drills. Single leg focus is not intended to shift all effort to one leg or the other, it is simply to focus on the pedal stroke of that one leg entirely. This might lead to an emphasized effort on one side, but you should not be sustaining 90% or 80% of your effort at target power with just that one leg. If that’s how you’re executing those drills, then the effect on your leg is similar to conducting ILT at target power in erg mode, and that’s still probably why you’re blowing up.

If that’s not how you’re doing it, then it could be as simple as your FTP is set too high for your current sustainable training capability, but it’s hard to say.

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That’s absolutely correct. Andrews doesn’t call for ILT drills in which you unclip. Rather it’s instructions are for “Single Leg Focus”, so you should still be pedaling and producing power with both, but simply focusing on the pedaling form of one leg at a time.

Here’s a screenshot from TR Workout Creator showing that portion of the Andrews instructions:

30%20AM

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Strange, andrews is a pretty mild workout. Perhaps your FTP is just set too high, especially since you said it was 10w higher than zwift (i take it that was a 20min power on zwift). Some people test unusually higher on ramp tests and get an elevated FTP. My FTP between Zwift and TR was 5w apart (263 vs 268) initially.

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I will definitely try to lower the ftp and try it again. I might just be in denial about my power :open_mouth:

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Only other advice is maybe spin a little faster, I tend to do Andrews in the high 80s, low 90s RPM wise. How do you do with other similar workouts? Have you tried Brasstown or Fletcher? Both similar in length but just a slightly lower IF and TSS. I think if you struggle to finish Andrews your FTP is high or you’re very fatigued. Done any centuries lately?

Maybe use your (slightly lower) Zwift FTP for a session and/or opt out of the Single Leg Focus drills for a session and see how that goes.
I still suspect muscular endurance is the reason you are not completing this session, as, was it Nash031 said, brought on by the SLF drills.

Andrews shouldn’t be hard at all. It’s a reasonable amount of calories worth of steady effort which might be enough to give you a bonk if you are very new to training but probably not as it’s fairly low effort so should be burning some fat and some glucose. You generally have enough stored glucose for approx an hour and a half of quite hard effort and enough fat stored for almost an eternity of easy effort so i’m surprised you are running out of anything.

When you say “bonk” are you meaning a complete breakdown where your body has used up all its fuel and your blood sugar plummets and you feel dizzy and almost fall on the floor and have to lie down for a while? That’s a bonk. Just your legs feeling a bit tired is not. You’ll know what a true bonk is when you get one. It’s not nice at all.

It might be just that you are not used to steady efforts. It’s a mental game as much as a physical thing and it is something you have to train in. Stick with it, don’t over-think it and you’ll be fine.

Obviously, make sure you have eaten properly (enough carbs) during the day before you do the workout (don’t skip lunch) and that you aren’t super-tired from other workouts, but really this should be doable.

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Your refit does sound a bit like you will need to adapt a bit, I presume it was recent. If you went down a size did your reach come in?

I am no fit expert but the data seems to show it is better to err on the low side of saddle height. Certainly my experience when I was professionally fitted was that he put me a little too high and back too far. I tried to adapt but it didn’t happen and the bike was unstable. I kept most of his changes but dropped 5mm on the saddle height and moved it 1 cm forward. Not sure if that is your issue here but worth thinking on.

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I am generally really good at endurance work. Just a couple of weeks ago I did a 6 hour ride and had plenty of energy left in the tank after that. Looking at the analysis of that ride, i see that half of it was in “active recovery” zone and not endurance. When doing Andrews I feel what I used to feel as a runner when I “hit a wall” but this has never happened to be on a bike before.

I am starting to think that I have actually neglected my endurance zone and there is some real work to be done there. Exciting!

So much to consider. I am really grateful for this community and the help I am getting :slight_smile:

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i think we are getting closer to the answer…

what is your FTP?
How are you measuring the power output on the trainer?
what is your heart rate while you’re doing Andrews? what is your max HR?

FTP (realistically) 160 - that is the power I can sustain for an hour. Ramp test put me at 180.
I am using the smart trainer to measure power (with a cadence meter).
My max HR is 190. 130 and 144 avg HR on the two Andrews attempts.

Wheel-on trainers are notoriously inconsistent when it comes to power readings, no matter what the marketing guff might say. Did you check your setup between rides - same tyre pressure, tension, room temperature, warm up the trainer, calibration, etc. ?

Why would a wheel on trainer be more inconsistent? Variation in tire pressure is going to be a pretty small difference, and that is what the spindown calibrates for. I have the same trainer as the OP and have had zero issues. I normally only bother with a spindown every few days.

Honestly I think you’re just getting used to trainer workouts.

Endurance rides on the trainer are hard. Not as hard as sweetspot, or threshold…or vo2 max…but they are still hard. Plus…they’re eaisier than those others, which just gives your brain room to think about how ‘not easy’ it is the whole time.

Frankly…even a 60 min recovery ride like lazy mountain on the trainer seems substantially harder than a similar easy ride outdoors.

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i’ve used a wheel on trainer for years and it correlates well with my vector 3 pedals.

It sounds like you’re using good settings. Don’t worry about what you can hold for an hour - that is a theoretical concept for most people as i challenge 99.99% of people to hold their FTP for an hour :slight_smile:

The HR sounds reasonable as well. My attempts have been at about 125 bpm.

Have you tried doing this on a day where you aren’t feeling tired and when you’ve had a decent breakfast?

It might just be the mental drain of a long dull steady effort. In many ways these sorts of workouts are the hardest as you don’t get any rush from it, it’s just steady work and more work, on and on and on.