For years I’ve used private Strava segments and Veloviewer to analyze/compare results. Works pretty darn well, but the Veloviewer UI doesn’t allow for much customization. In my experience Strava does an excellent job at recognizing segments, but no tools to rank past ones by power (only time).
Thanks!
Thanks - I use a SRM PC8 which I like. Would be ironic if the GPS on that is considered sub par and need to use something else. You mentioned Garmin can lead to errors. Who is left? Wahoo?
I think Smart Segments are potentially really powerful, becuase its basically Strava but with analytics; in training I dint care so much about my time on a climb, but more on NP, or to experiment on NP vs cadence vs HR.
But as you say, if you can do the exact same col and press start at same position and stop is 5 metres different it needs to be flexible enough to recognise both are the same
Otherwise it will be frustratingly hit or miss
@TimWKO Re: Smart Segments
After clearing out all cached data/preferences/settings/etc. for both WKO4/WKO5, I setup WKO5 with a clean slate and synced. Then took another look at WKO5 smart segments. This time I used the 2nd lap, as the first lap had the starting line off by a small distance (~10-15 feet off the road, behind the stage on a side street). Small GPS error, and looking at the track the GPS is generally pretty good but not perfect.
Strava - 22 laps
TrainerRoad - 22 laps (created manually)
WKO5 - 21 laps (all except for 1st lap)
GoldenCheetah - 11 laps (every other lap)
While not a full side-by-side, I’m satisfied that WKO5 can do a good job at finding segments. 
Would be really nice if WKO5 recognized all segments (as compared with Strava). And it would be awesome if Strava segments (private or public) could be used to define WKO5 Smart Segment.
And re: performance
Removing all WKO4 and WKO5 data has resolved the issue. No issues with performance in WKO5 now.
However I tried reinstalling WKO4 (using separate data directory) and ran into issues with past workouts not syncing. Quickly gave up and removed all WKO cached data again, and setup WKO5 as a new user again. I’ll not launch WKO4 again, until after finishing WKO5 trial.
That’s an issue you’d need to take up with Strava 1st. Strava segments are proprietary to Strava and not available via APIs. Ditto for other Strava metrics. In fact, Strava took a hard line position against the software company, Relive, that was using Strava data in its video reproduction of a user’s ride and would not abide by Strava’s policies. Good luck. And if you solve that problem, perhaps you could convince TR to allow export of it’s workouts 
Really? I believe the “not available via APIs” is a false statement.
For example, Veloviewer has no problem using Strava API for segments. Just pulled up the crit I’ve been using for testing, and am able to rank all of my warmup and race laps by just about anything (power, speed, duration, heart rate, cadence, group size).
And here is the Strava API doc…
source: Strava Developers
API access has to be approved by Strava
Perhaps you are right. However, the language in the agreement may say something like “For commercial use”. Is Veloviewer for free or is a for fee service? Or perhaps Veloviewer may be violating the agreement. I don’t know. But based on Tim’s explicit comments in the webinar about Strava not allowing it, I made the assumption that it wasn’t available in the API, but perhaps it is “only” in the license to use documentation.
no, you just need to agree to API Agreement. All the info to getting started is listed here:
https://developers.strava.com
I’ve created a simple app without requiring Strava approval.
Here is the agreement:
https://www.strava.com/legal/api
Yes, but with statements like:
- Your use of the Strava API is subject to volume limits and other use restrictions.
- Strava may modify or discontinue access to the Strava API.
This means that if for any reason they decide that they can make some money off you because you built something useful, they can cut off your access.
That is more what I was getting at in terms of Strava “approving” the use of the API. Strava is more interested in monetizing the data set that they view as “theirs” rather than democratizing access to it.
like it or not, it is an open API and you can start developing with only acceptance of the API Agreement. I’m not going to debate the agreement. The simple fact is that the Strava “app ecosystem” has more than one company using the Segment API.
From my understanding reading the public controversy regarding the Relive news, including statements by both companies, Here is the explicit statement in the developer’s agreement that Relive was seen as violating:
- You may not create an application that merely replicates or competes with Strava.
Similar to Relive, I believe it would be easy for Strava to make the same case against WKO. And given the public humiliation to Relive, I think it would not be in WKO’s best interest to develop this capability.
Wasn’t trying to argue or be combative. Monday brain fog 
Mostly I was trying to point out that many companies have used Strava’s API for cool integrations that they promoted to customers and then were subsequently shut down or “shook down” as soon as Strava realized people found it useful. “Live Segments” on devices is a good example of this, as is the Relive example.
If the WKO5 team can find away to avoid that fate, that would be great for smart segments and we would all benefit from it and I agree that it would be a great feature.
yes, it would be good if WKO team felt comfortable using the Segment API. Only they can speak to that. If you haven’t looked at Veloviewer, check it out here: About | VeloViewer as its interesting to see it is/was being used 12 men’s world tour teams.
I think we all agree that the use of Strava Segments would be very valuable for use with WKO Smart Segments.
The way for that to happen is if TP (WKO) develops a commercial license arrangement with Strava in a similar manner that TR did with TP. For reference on the TR website:
" NP, IF and TSS are trademarks of Peaksware, LLC and are used with permission. Learn more at www.trainingpeaks.com"
While the TR-TP relationship is for use of the trademarks (that could be either the words themselves and.or any logos affiliated with them), it seems that it would be an easy case to make that, if TP were to use Strava segments without the expressed written permission of Strava, it could be construed as an explicit violation of the competitive clause in the developer’s agreement.
That is one way, it is not the only way. From what I can tell, there hasn’t been any integration between TrainingPeaks and Strava. Just thinking out loud, and off the cuff it seems TP/WKO’s biggest risk of “getting shut down by Strava” is limited to the engineering effort (opportunity lost). However if that happens it creates an opportunity to generate a lot of free publicity for WKO. So if it is trivial effort (not that anything in software is…), it could be seen by WKO team as ‘nothing to lose’ and everything to gain. The other risk is that it becomes popular with WKO coaches/users, they hit Strava volume limits, and TP/WKO have to pay Strava $$ to raise volume limits. And that negotiation happens when WKO team is in weakest negotiating position. Again, just thinking out loud without putting any real thought into it. 
Some interesting tidbits over on Twitter about how Jumbo Visma used VeloViewer during La Vuelta.
Just surmising, but I think there are two big risks:
- “the black eye”: What Relive faced when they were explicitly called out for having violated the agreement (my recollection; but as I understand it, Strava asked Relive to make changes to the software and Relive wouldn’t)
- the management time: I would think that the engineering time would not be big (e.g. it seems it would be somewhat similar to WKO importing user segments from TP). however, the distraction to the small WKO staff might be bigger
This seems like a quality problem. Lots of successful freemium online storage companies have this. Then the issue/opportunity becomes how to monetize it. It is basically Strava’s problem. Millions of subscribers, but they have to figure out how to monetize it successfully (AFIK, Strava is still not profitable).
I doubt its a quality problem, or your use of the term “quality problem” is lost on me. Like I believe you say later on, it seems that rate limits are a way for Strava to monetize / extract money from eco-system partners that become successful. And that is a perfectly valid business model (I’m not defending it, just stating fact).
Guys can we get this thread back on track?
Anyone used wko over the winter months? How does PDC hold up when only doing sweet spot base and ramp tests?
Is my mFTP going to get messed up as there is zero high end power?
I’m in the 4th week of traditional base, and mFTP and TTE are wrong as expected. I’ve posted some details above. WKO5 does suggest 3 max efforts that I should do - something like 6 seconds, 2.5 minutes, and 25 minutes.