How are people getting 100g+ carbs in a bottle?

The reason for this whole discussion is because people were trying to figure out how to take in more than 60g carbs per hour without stomach issues. The answer was to use two kinds of sugar. 60g maltodextrin and 30g Fructose gives 90g per hour without the upset of going over 60g.

I’ll also add that fructose TASTES sweet where malto does not, so if you want your drink to taste sweeter, you can achieve that by adding fructose. If you want to stick to 60g carbs, you could do 40/20 or 50/10. If you don’t care about sweetness, then 60g malto is fine. Where I live, fructose costs more than malto too.

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I use Gu Roctane Grape. Started with 60g an hour last year through MV plans, then moved up to 90g an hour through SSBHV1 and SSBHV2 this winter. Last 2 weeks of SSBHV2 increased to 100g then 120g for that last week. My stomach seemed to tolerate the mix pretty well with approximately 30oz (0.9L) of water. Starting ShortPB HV this week and I’ll probably try 120g on the really tough days and 90 on the others. Still experimenting and training the gut.

What about the rpe of the workouts? While you increasing carb intake, how does it affects your workouts?

How fast/slow are dried fruits? If i just drink malto and get fructose from dried fruits? Maybe good for longer/easier rides so not the fastest way to go?

It’s my first time doing a HV plan and it’s more weekly TSS then I’ve ever done. So I don’t have a direct comparison as I just upped carbs as TSS increased. RPE is about what I expected, which was a bit challenging at times but doable. I am surprised however that I was able to handle a HV plan and my recovery has been good. I’ve only done TR mid volume plans the past 2 years so I’m happy at age 44 my body could handle the volume.

I am finding HV easier than MV but I don’t know if it’s the extra carbs or the lower intensity of HV.

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Somewhat off topic for this thread but SSB-MV looks like a build plan to me with VO2 and threshold workouts. I much prefer SSB-HV for base if for no reason other than taking a mental break from intensity.

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Yes, often think SSB2 (not so much SSB1) is badly named for low and mid volume as not actually much sweetspot at all…more like ‘Build part 1’

How many weeks into HV are you? MV the intensity certainly makes you feel it immediately, HV is like a slow grind that wears you down over a few weeks.

Just finished SSBHV 1 & 2. Tomorrow starts ShortPB HV.

I finished SusPB-HV yesterday and really struggled throughout the whole plan, which is somewhat odd since I tend to favor sustained efforts and didn’t have much of a problem the previous time I did it. I felt very worn down and mentally tired of intensity. I looked back through my training history and did SSB-MV between build plans, but then realized SSB-MV is more like a build plan and that I had been doing intensity without any real break since July. While six months of intense training may be normal for some, it was a huge step for me from what I had been doing for the seven months prior on TR and eight months before that on another program. Anyway, I’m changing tactics and going with SSB-HV and will change out the Wednesday one-hour sweet spot ride for endurance if needed.

Looping back to the topic of this thread, I switched from a custom mix from Infinit Nutrition to a homemade brew about a month ago. The only thing my homemade mix lacks that Infinit does is caffeine (about 40mg), but I can remedy that with Nuun+Caffeine tablets or just adding caffeine capsules. I don’t think the lack of caffeine by itself was a reason for my struggles, but I’ll continue to experiment.

When I did the SSB HV plans, I added a recovery week after week 3. For something like Sustained Power HV Build, I would do recovery after 2wks if needed.

Aside from having time to do HV, one has to be have adequate recovery. Recovery whether nutrition, sleep, additional rest days due to lack of aforementioned, etc… is critical to being able to absorb the training and not burn out or quit.

Agreed completely, and I’m finally acknowledging that I’m limited by recovery. Despite my best efforts I can’t get more than about 6 - 6.5 hours of sleep per night due to family, work, commute, etc. Plus I’m not getting any younger. I’m secretly hopeful that by training a little less and being able to recover (fully) from the training I do, that I’ll be able to get faster.

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You will!

I have been reading a lot on the forum about drinking carbs on the bike. and have a few questions:

Is there any benefit from drinking fructose for rides under 1.5 hour, if it takes that long for consumed fructose to be available for energy? Perhaps it still helps with reducing RPE as our body detects that more carbs are on the way?

If we stick to the 60g of glucose can we use any mix of Maltodextrine / simple Glucose as long as there is enough water to absorb? So e.g. in a bottle of 750ml, we could add anything between only 60g of Maltodextrine, down to 30g Maltodextrine with 30g of simple Glucose and still have some space for a pinch of salt and citric acid for taste. Would it matter at all for performance? I guess one reason to go more towards Maltodextrine is if it is cold and we don’t expect to drink 750ml in an hour?

I don’t really get the Isotonic thing, on one way we are saying that the carbs only get absorbed once the concentration is similar to the concentration of dissolved particles in our body, but if that is the case then why is it dangerous to drink seawater as it increases the concentration of salt in our blood and extracts water from cells? If the salty water gets absorbed with high concentrations of salt, why doesn’t the water also get absorbed with high concentrations of carbs?

Salty water in your stomach/intestines will initially draw more water from your body, dehydrating you. You may end up with diarrhea, thus losing more water. And the salt that does get absorbed, your kidneys end up excreting a ton of water to get rid of the salt.

High concentrations of carbs will similarly draw body fluid into the digestive system, but as it gets actively absorbed and metabolized you don’t have excretion problems.

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Yes. Absolutely. For more info check out these related threads over on slowtwitch.
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=last-7417228#first
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=last-7444621#first

The TLDR of all my comments over there is:

  1. Performance enhancement happens for anything over 60min. Probably useful to fuel appropriately for shorter rides than that.
  2. Use closer to a 1:1 Glu:Fru ratio. 2:1 Glu:Fru ratio is old dogma.
  3. Sucrose works as well as maltodextrin+fructose, and probably better than glucose+fructose.
  4. 90g carbs per hour is bogus dogma. 120-150g/hr is no problem.
  5. 10-18% beverage concentrations are often well-tolerated. (100-180g sugar per liter).
  6. Hydration must be maintained. Use a minimum of 500-1500mg sodium per L. Maybe more…
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Bingo! Multiple transportable sugars is key. Newer research pretty clearly indicates we can go a lot higher than the old dogma of 60/30/90 (60 glucose, 30 fructose, 90 total). Please let those numbers die!

Here’s 3 awesome sources that say so. (PDFs attached, I think… I’m new to this specific forum)

I routinely do ~75g glucose, 60g fructose, and ~135g total carbs per hour on rides lasting 2-5 hrs.

Use sucrose and Gatorade. More info here: Saving Money as an Endurance Athlete

Zefal Magnum Bottles (32oz)
Additional Universal Bottle Mount

TROMMELEN_2017 Fructose and sucrose intake increase exogenous carbohydrate oxidation during exercise.pdf (1.8 MB) GONZALEZ_2017_Glucose plus fructose ingestion for post-exercise recovery-Greater than the sum of its parts.pdf (1016.7 KB) REVIEW, Rowlands2015_Article_FructoseGlucoseCompositeCarboh.pdf (785.1 KB)

Good news! It does work like that! And y’all literally can just dump sugar in a bottle. Save yourself some money. Not kidding.

GONZALEZ_2017_Glucose plus fructose ingestion for post-exercise recovery-Greater than the sum of its parts.pdf (1016.7 KB)

With utmost respect for Dr. Asker Jeukendrup who is a legend and pioneer in the field of intra-workout fueling strategy, that article, and some of the recommendations that stem from his earlier work that continue to make their way into position stands of the ISSN are probably leaving vast swaths of cyclists and triathletes:

  1. Underfueled.

  2. With an overemphasis on complexity of beverage (malto plus fruc plus sucrose plus gluc confusion)

  3. Overconsuming glucose slightly, and vastly underconsuming fructose.

This is how I do it: (I’m cheap)
Saving Money as an Endurance Athlete

More info on how to make it work better:
When and How to Use High-Carb Fueling

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Thanks for the links.

So for workouts < 1hr, the carbs are not adding much to fuel, because we should have enough stored. But it could help with lowering RPE. So fructose could still help for shorter workouts even if the energy from it only comes after an hour.

I also like to add some citric acid for flavor, cancels out a bit of the sweetness.

Regarding how maltodextrin gets processed in the stomach, first it is cut into glucose before it ultimately gets absorbed. Does that mean you still need to take as much water per gram of maltodextrin as you do for glucose?

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Water needs are actually more predicated on energy density of the consumption, rather than osmolarity, FYI. Osmolarity is reduced by using maltodextrin. Energy density is not.

In general, water needs will be similar, regardless of malto vs. gluc use. Maybe 10% less water could be safely trialed while using malto instead of gluc.

But better yet, use sucrose to get your fructose + glucose. When targeting near 1:1 ratio of gluc:fruc (which I assure you is better than 2:1), sucrose alone is a lower osmolarity than malto+fruc.

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