The question on the modeling was answered very well by Andy in the TT forum. The issue is one of “modeling” that has been confused as with “data”. The model uses all the data to determine a “Power Duration Curve” and from that power duration curve, it derives metrics such as Pmax, FRC and mFTP. The key thing is we give people two distinct formats to test it. First, visually look at the “fit”. I know this sounds simple but no reason to make it more complex.
. Look at the image, even with some odd MMP (yellow) data, the red Power Duration Curve fits it pretty well. Second, we give you the math to see the error calculations, top right you can see both the % range and +/- . No model is perfect and people should see this not as a solution or a “training system” but as a tool that helps you better understand the athlete to better individualize / target your training. It will not replace knowledge or the “Art of Coaching” but is a tool to enhance both.
To specifically answer why 1 sec has an effect, that point is often taken out of context. Think about it this way. The point the person “trolling” in that TT forum was making is their 1 sec data went up 500 watts, that changes the mFTP. Well it does but think about it what was really being said was “if I artificially manipulate the model with an impossible scenario, it changes the output”…well the answer is yes. The model was meant to function based on actual human performance, having 2,000 watt 1 second and 1,000 watt 2 sec max just doesn’t happen. This does not change the fact that “all points” affect the model and I admit that yes, 1 sec does affect the model but it is minuscule UNLESS you change the 1 sec max to some crazy number. Now we also use the CV % as a check point. If the model returns any error possibility of greater then 5% it does not calculate (the issue you see in FB all the time is “my PDC model disappeared” when the user introduces a data spike). This is a check to the model accuracy and will not allow the artificially introduced error to be more than 5%.
Also, in a much belated response to the “some other discussion system besides Facebook” we are working on a solution for WKO user that is more of a forum but to be transparent as always, it won’t get done to after World Championships.
Sorry for not tracking this forum well. There are simply too many for me to keep up with but as a fan of TrainerRoad, need to be more attentive here…
I think it does. In fact, Andrew Coggins’ chart suggests that 18 watts per kilogram for 5 second is about middle of the range for category 2. For a 65 kilogram cyclist that’s about 1000 watts for five seconds. If you’re heavier, say 75 kg, 1000 watts for 5 seconds has you down in the cat 4 range. These aren’t “crazy numbers.”
But regardless, downplaying the degree to which one second power affects my mFTP by saying it’s “minuscule” does not “specifically address” why very short term power should have any affect on my mFTP in the first place.
I think he was saying throwing out a 1 sec of 2000w and a 2sec best of 1000w isnt feasible and is crazy numbers. Sometimes we create crazy extreme scenarios to try and disprove something, but our scenario isn’t feasible in the real world.
Exactly. And the model+metrics work well if there is good data. Which is why I’m seeing wacky numbers - because without good data it will under-estimate metrics (except for TTE).
My earlier “fun with modeling” post was simply poking fun and not meant to undermine. I’ve got a lot of respect for the WKO4 model and metrics when I’m feeding it good data.
No worries, I did not take it wrong. Key point it is not a “train by / absolute system” just a good tool to guide. As you point out, need some simple good data / testing, it works great.
In many ways I see more value If I were a coach, needing to quickly assess a new athlete or refresh on an athlete’s abilities. As a self-coached athlete, I now primarily rely on TR and use WKO4 to try and determine what worked in my previous efforts to increase fitness.
I realize this may be a bit uncomfortable for you, but would like your thoughts on these remarks:
sure, TR will, WKO will, Golden Cheetah will, etc. All you need is a power meter and hour Edge 130. I’d set it to 1 second power recording (it might default to smart recording).
Thanks! I’m still on an Edge 500 … … but the GPS acquisition is getting worse as is the battery life so it might be time to upgrade (after 7 years). It is nice to see IF, NP and TSS on the unit at the end of a ride without having to fire up WKO… the 130 doesn’t do that.
if you have TR it will show those stats too. The free Garmin Connect mobile and web apps will show the stats. Even the free TrainingPeaks will show those stats. You don’t need a computer and WKO, those are pretty basic stats and available on a lot of (free) platforms.
Not uncomfortable at all. For those who follow the WKO webinars and learning stuff you know that I always tell people to question things and learn. The issues is I am not sure where the links leads, but I assume the post you are pointing out is the “top of the page” when I follow link. Basically both questions are directed at the slight edits we made to the model. First off, read the article that can be found ing the www.wko5.com help site, here is the direct link: WKO Power Duration Model V2
That is a pretty good and honest summary. We made a slight edit to the model we (Andy, Hunter, Kevin and I ) made in WKO4. The model is actually a regression model (someone above figured it out as their language was correct) which in simple terms means it runs a lot of models (a real lot of models) and finds the best “fit”. This model fit is what the generates the error correction numbers in my image above. Now, when you start talking “fit” you have to ask fit to what? Andy maintains a data base of about 130 riders that feature a lot of pro level riders. The WKO4 model was designed use that as the “fit” criteria. Now that we have had the model working for years we had the ability to check that fit against a much, much larger data set and learned that against that database the model did not fit as well. This data base represented more of a cross section of everyday cyclists that train in a different in a different way, so we tweaked to to better fit a more broad array of athletes. His comment about “vanity ftp” is actually correct, that is where you can see a few watts difference (read the article). What drives it? People today do not really go hard much longer than 20 minutes, it is not the best answer for training but in reality it is more representative of what people are actually doing. So if you are a person that tests at 20 min max and / or never goes hard for longer than 30 min lets say, the model typically might underestimate your mFTP and that was a big complaint. The WKO5 model simply deals with that better, creates a better fit. Here is the key thing to understand. If you DO train like a pro, testing and training time ranges harder than 20-30 minutes, your model would not change at all…the tweak was just to help those that don’t by cleaning up their model fit (look the images in the article, you will see what I mean). Sorry that might not be the most clear post, sitting in airport late at night after long two days of travel but wanted to get you an answer.
Just a quick notes. My posts are being flagged as SPAM due to them being too “selling” in nature. Sorry if replies are missing or disappearing. The staff restored all the hidden ones last night. I totally understand, that was a concern way back in my original post, same reason I do not post WKO stuff on the wattage list. That being said, I also don’t want people to think I am ducking the honest questions. This thread, by name is about WKO5 so just trying to support it. I believe my answer are not selling at all, answering each question with the facts which are not always “flattering” but honest.
@TimWKO, I don’t know the specifics about how TR has Discourse set, but it is likely related to the number of links, and those may be the cause of the auto-spam flagging.
I am happy to re-open them because I see them as useful posts and links (not selling). I expect that everyone here is happy to have you involved and answering questions in the depth you provide.
But I know it’s annoying when they disappear for a while until I get to them. I will do my best to address them. You can also message me directly if I haven’t addressed any future issues quickly.
The Edge 530 gives you a nice ride summary including IF, NP and TSS after the ride. Actually, those are fields you can set up to see in ride too in real time, cumulatively or within a lap.
If you have been collecting power data, all that stuff can be pulled out of past rides. They’re all just math done on basic power data. So, you probably already have 7 years of data, you just need to mine it.
… but the GPS acquisition is getting worse as is the battery life so it might be time to upgrade (after 7 years). It is nice to see IF, NP and TSS on the unit at the end of a ride without having to fire up WKO… the 130 doesn’t do that.
but honest.