Rough workout making future workouts too easy?

TrainerRoad Software
1

I just started General Build Low Volume. I had a tough VO2 workout today, Brasted, which comprises three sets of 13x :30/:15 with 3 minute recoveries between sets. For whatever reason, it was a bit too much for me today, so I dropped intensity to 95% for the last set and backpedaled for one of the 30s intervals. Oh well, still accomplished most of the workout (.82/.85 IF), got a great training stimulus, etc. Marked it as Maximum Effort with intensity as the reason.

This resulted in my AIFTP prediction dropping from +15W to +1W with two weeks to go. +15W was always unlikely, but it seems pretty harsh to do four weeks of Build for a 1W FTP increase.

More importantly, it scaled back the difficulty of my upcoming VO2 workouts, which of course makes sense. What makes less sense to me is that it also scaled back my threshold workouts. I recently completed a PL 4.0 threshold workout at my current FTP and rated it Hard. After today, my next two threshold workouts have been reduced to PL 2.9 and 3.4 (they were 3.6 and 4.0 before today). I’m struggling to understand why one tough VO2 workout would have such an impact on my supposed ability to complete threshold workouts.

What would you do? Manually select alternate workouts on these days more in line with what I know I can handle? Do the first easier workout, rate it accordingly (probably Moderate), and hope it adjusts from there?

2

I’m in a similar situation. I started TR a month ago and am currently doing 3 interval sessions per week. I “failed” one of my first Threshold sessions because TR overestimated my FTP by A LOT based on my imported Strava rides. I had to adjust the intensity down by 3% towards the later intervals and rated it as MAX Effort afterwards. Since then the first month went quite well and workouts were hard but manageable.

With the 2nd month it started giving me VO2 sessions and the first one was too hard again. I had to reduce the intensity in the last set, rated it as Max Effort and was “punished” pretty heavily in the FTP prediction (essentially now predicting me to lose fitness with a month to go). My plan at the moment is to give the AI more data, do the next few workouts and adjust intensity up if needed during the workout and rate them accordingly. And hopefully with more data things will stabilize a bit more.

At the end of the day the FTP number is just a carrot they dangle in front of you. It’s the cyclists’ “How much do you bench bro?”. Nobody cares, if the workouts are adjusted properly and are sufficiently challenging I don’t care too much about the number. They should have never called their Fitness Estimation “FTP” in the first place, it’s just confusing everyone and they stated several times that it’s not really your FTP as defined elsewhere.

3

Totally agree about FTP only being useful as a training number. I posted here in the past during a period where my AIFTP was probably inflated relative to my abilities, making my training zones a bit higher than intended. However, things eventually did stabilize, first with an AIFTP reduction, then eventually a solid increase as I actually improved. I’ve successfully completed some Sweet Spot and Threshold workouts at my current AIFTP and based on those workouts it seems to be calibrated well for me.

I’m less concerned about the AIFTP prediction and more focused on the PLs of my upcoming workouts. I don’t think it makes a ton of sense to rely on adjusting intensity upwards within a workout for e.g. threshold over-unders, since that would just make them VO2 workouts, which have a different goal. I’d rather just do higher PL threshold workouts, which would keep the zone percentages the same but increase time in zone. So I guess my question is whether I should manually do this by selecting harder alternates, or if I should “trust the process”, try to smash a slightly easier workout, and hope the program adjusts based on my performance and post-workout survey? Or if there’s another option I’m missing?

4

The saga continues…

Last week I chose a harder threshold workout than the AI selected for me, which I was able to complete with a bit of struggle (it was borderline Hard / Very Hard, so I rated Very Hard to keep things honest). AIFTP prediction adjusted from +1W to +2W. Small wins.

Today, I did the prescribed VO2 workout (PL 5.1, an increase from last week’s partially-failed PL 4.9). I was able to fully complete it. Based on how challenging it was, I would typically rate it as Very Hard. After doing so, my AIFTP went down to -2W. But more annoyingly, it scaled down Wednesday’s anaerobic workout from PL 7.9 to PL 7.5, and Friday’s threshold workout from PL 3.3 to PL 2.9, but kept next Monday’s VO2 workout exactly the same!

What would make the most sense to me is if rating today’s VO2 workout Very Hard resulted in next week’s VO2 workout being scaled back a bit. It would also make some sense if every workout until then were slightly scaled back to account for some accumulated fatigue (even though I know today’s workout will not affect my ability to hit Wednesday and Friday hard, it would be understandable for the AI to assume that). But what doesn’t make sense is scaling back this week’s workouts in essentially unrelated power zones while leaving next week’s VO2 workout, the area in which I struggled, exactly the same.

I’m having trouble trusting the magical AI that no one can explain. I’m tempted to reduce today’s rating to Hard just because I know I’ll be able to complete the upcoming workouts that are populated when using that rating. Thoughts?

I’m feeling a bit discouraged that I’ve been consistently putting in the work and following the plan (with only one partially scaled back workout and one harder alternate in the entire training cycle), yet I’m expected to lose FTP this cycle? I’ve only been doing structured cycling training for ~3-4 months so I wouldn’t expect to plateau this quickly (although my general fitness was decent for a non-endurance athlete coming in), so hoping this is just an example of progress being non-linear rather than the gains slowing to a crawl. Or maybe I’m just putting too much faith in an AI’s ability to accurately assess my FTP based on performance over a training cycle comprising mostly VO2 and anaerobic workouts.

5

The only thing I can think of is that the AI is making the next few workouts easier because it thinks you may be fatigued, even if you are capable of doing the workouts, does it make sense to heap more fatigue on your body than is nesscessary? Then after a few ‘easier’ days it assumes you are recovered and therefore doesn’t alter your next VO2 workout.

This is only my opinion, I’ve no evidence, I do think that the whole thing would be much better if the reasons behind some of the changes were communicated to the user. I’m in a similar place at the moment scratching my head at some of the workout recommendations, it seems absolutely fixated on recommending Goat Citadel as a VO2 workout, given that is only 1min intervals with 2min recoveries, I doubt very much that will nudge the needle on my VO2, this is despite me completing ‘harder’ VO2 to nudge the AI a bit.

6

I think that @Greased_Flea might be on to something here. When you rate a workout as really difficult, there is likely a fair bit of fatigue that comes along with it, and therefore, we should probably slightly modify some of your upcoming workouts.

The thing is, that next VO2 workout (or whatever it is that you struggled with on the day) doesn’t come for another week, and we likely aren’t changing your training that far out.

What I can say is that your training looks really good, @BikeFitnessGuy. You are certainly getting fitter, even if your FTP isn’t always moving up. Each week since the start of your TR career is littered with all-time PRs, so you’re certainly improving.

Training improvements aren’t usually perfectly linear, and not all fitness is reflected in FTP. You can see that in your May FTP Detection, where your FTP dropped by 1%. Then in June, it jumped up 2%. :chart_increasing:

Also, you rated your threshold workout from Friday as “Very Hard,” so it seems like that workout was plenty hard for you. :sweat_smile:

Did you modify that workout at all, or is that the one we prescribed after completing Brasted earlier in the week?

I think your final FTP for this block will likely be influenced by that last threshold workout on Friday, so hang in there and give that one your best shot.

The 2-watt decrease you’re seeing in your prediction right now is extremely small and would have very little impact on your training throughout this build phase, which is where your fitness usually improves. Sometimes it just takes a week or two to adjust to the change in training stimulus.

Let me know if this helps and if you have any other questions about this. I want to make sure you’re confident in your training and your fitness! :flexed_biceps:

7

Thanks for the response @eddie. I’m probably getting too bogged down in the minutia of each individual workout rather than being focused on the big picture.

For last Friday’s threshold workout, I peaked at what workout would have been prescribed had I not done Brasted (via unchecking the box to “include this ride for TrainerRoad AI”), re-checked the box, and selected it as an alternate. This seemed to be the best way to get an appropriately hard threshold workout while not preventing the AI from knowing I had trouble with Brasted. Like I said, the threshold workout ended up being borderline Hard / Very Hard, and based on past experience I’ve recently been choosing the higher rating when on the cusp.

Appreciate the words of encouragement. I’ll try to stop fixating on the AIFTP prediction number (it seems I’m not alone in feeling that watching it fluctuate over a training cycle is unhelpful for motivation) and get back to work!