I am replacing easy workouts with harder ones I know I am capable of completing, but the predicted FTP drops significantly. The logic makes no sense.
In one case I wasn’t feeling good one workout and AI replaced all my difficult workouts with much easier ones and dropped my predicted FTP. Makes sense. But when I replaced the workouts that changed with the workouts that had previously been in those exact same spots, the predicted FTP dropped even further.
This
And this
It maybe feels you have to recover first before doing harder workouts again. Doing harder work outs when you need to recover can be detrimental.
They way I figure it, when I ask for a plan to increase my FTP, AI generates an optimal plan for that. If I deviate from that optimal plan going harder or easier, then what I’m doing become sub optimal so the gains will be less.
I agree, but that still doesn’t explain how FTP is going down by programming harder work.
Doing harder work outs when you need to recover can be detrimental.
Detrimental, including Detrimental to your FTP. Maybe someone from TrainerRoad can explain the precise affect on the predicted FTP rather than my generalisation.
Can you post screenshots or links to your calendar?
They discuss the issue in today’s podcast.
What did they say?
It may cause additional fatigue, but it shouldn’t reduce your FTP. That logic of doing harder work will reduce your FTP doesn’t make sense.
The Ai is not estimating your ftp, it’s estimating your ability to complete a “level 3 threshold workout “ then finds the FTP value that allows you to do this workout as the workout is based on % of FTP.
What I think it might be doing is below
If you apply the same logic to a self selected Harder workout which are all based of % of FTPs, the Ai will likely be thinking, for gord962 to complete their selected workout (at the ability it thinks you have or will have in the future), I need to reduce their FTP.
So until you prove the AI otherwise, it is going to try and allow you to do the chosen workouts, but reduce your FTP so that you can do it and mark it Hard with a low chance of failure.
Further to my post above. Here is my level 3.4 threshold workout for tomorrow.
The NP required at my current Ai FTP shown in blue, against my 6 week record in orange.
If my FTP set higher, the blue line moves up, a lower FTP it moves down.
I think that when the Ai calculates your FTP, it is just trying to find the best fit of these two lines. You can see for me it’s a good match.
So if you go and populate your calendar with hard workouts, this is going to push the blue line way above the orange. So to make the lines fit, the Ai has to drop your FTP to compensate. Otherwise it thinks you are going to fail your workouts.
It can’t drop your FTP until the end the 28day cycle, so it’s just predicting that’s what it’s going to haveto do so that you have achievable workouts.
If your chosen workouts however match the Ais Prediction of achievable FTP ramp. It will predict a gain in FTP as it predicts the orange line is going to move up.
If you exceed the ramp, it thinks the you are going to fail the workout so the orange line won’t move up, and it will then drop your FTP so you can do your chose high level workouts, achieve them and then push the orange line up
But if you prove that you can in fact do the harder workouts, it will push the orange line up, and this will allow it to match you with a higher FTP.
IDK, but I guess some would theorize that the additional fatigue might reduce the effective of subsequent training. I know if I’m fatigued and do an FTP test, I’ll test lower than if fresh and in form. Perhaps that’s what TR AI is “thinking”.
I think it’s because it’s predicting that you won’t recover as well from doing the hard work and therefore your hard days won’t be hit as cleanly. It’s like doing recovery miles a little too hard, it’s not hard enough to improve but it’s not easy enough to recover. It does readapt after every workout too depending on how well you’ve recovered.
That makes sense. Thank you!
Exactly, its not estimating anything it knows exactly what your FTP is more accurately than a lab test or the more traditional method of getting your FTP with a ramp test.
No, it seems to know very well what to set your TR “FTP” at for you to complete a level 3 TR threshold workout and rate it hard or very hard.
I’d strongly argue that’s very different from any historical definition of FTP and any true ability to hold that number for 40-70mins.
TR level 3 threshold workouts are generally 20-40 minutes time in zone (all at or below threshold) over 60-120 minutes, and never more than 10 mins on. In the context of available threshold workouts, they’re pretty easy.
This inflates my FTP by around 20 watts and I suspect that is true for most others, because completing a level 3 threshold workout is so far removed from doing the number continuously for anywhere close to an hour, or being able to do it without your blood lactate spiking.
Not 2 weeks out. It is an estimate based on current +future workouts completed at the predicted difficulty. It can’t know my FTP if I haven’t done the workouts yet.
TR Redefined FTP, I think we need to stop using the old, outdated, definition that was not well explained.
