Point of Destruction

I did Warlow today. 90 minutes in the stationary saddle was tough. Legs started to give out in the 3rd over/under. I just couldn’t push through at that intensity. I kept going the whole ride, but only did bits of the last two sets. I did the full 90 minutes, but my last 2 sets fell apart and I dropped the intervals almost completely.


I did the 90 minutes, but simply had no more to give to intervals. It was my legs not my cardio.

So do I do a short recovery ride to make up for the missed TSS or rest?

You do not need to be a slave to the TSS number. Your legs have let you down not a disaster. You can do a recovery low intensity ride. Or Rest day. Over and under’s can be tough. Were they done with a New FTP number? The design of this 90 minute session is empty the Anaerobic tank first so as to tax your aerobic system, that is why it gets tougher and tougher. Maybe dial the % down a couple of percent the next time. Are you drinking an energy drink during the workout. How was your sleep the day of your training session? Just some things to consider.

1 Like

Depends what type of rider you are as well. I time trial and find SS pretty easy - o/u I’m ok with - like McAdie/Fang Mountain/ Carpathian/Avalanche…but I find this session really tough as the spikes go up to 110% and stay there - even though the TSS is lower than McAdie which has more spikes - but only 105% - Warlow is really a VO2 max ride which I’m not great at - you may need to work on that as well.

Cooling? It’s getting hotter and more humid here in the northeast, so tides are getting tougher.

Hydration? Add ice to your drinks to help with cooking.

Doesn’t ice actually make you heat up even more?!

The thing that immediately stands out to me is that you maintained prescribed power during the recovery valleys. Judging by the climbing HR, I think you paid the price.

If I’m having a bad day, I’ll backpedal at least part of the recovery valleys. Sometimes even pause the workout and get off the bike completely to take a breather.

There’s no point in “nailing” a recovery valley if you’re falling apart on the work intervals.


Thanks…technically I can’t “backpedal” on my setup (Keiser bike), but I could turn the dial right off. You are correct, I recovered less and less from each round.

I guess that would have made things worse for him. After all, his problem were the legs (and not the lungs). Not circling them around wouldn’t have helped him clear all the waste of the intervals.

I took a quick look at your career: It looks like you are fairly new to structured training. Likely was your first with over and unders.
Based on that I would assume you are just not there yet. Though it won’t take long and you will see yourself nailing those workouts. Give it some time and trust the plans. :v:t2:

Regarding your TSS question: you could do that but it wouldn’t be the same. The workout was aimed to trigger certain adaptations. An endurance ride won’t be a substitute for that.

Were they done with a New FTP number?

Actually the opposite. I feel the FTP was understated, but I went with it cause I was new to TR (this FTP ramp test was a sad 170. Lab tests in the past have been 215-220 consistently. I haven’t been on the bike that much and recovering from injury, so I accepted the number and went with a more gentle start.

FYI…point of destruction was just me being comedic. I am okay with cycling to failure, but am curious what people do when that happens.

Up until this ride I have been fine. It was my first indoor 90 minute. Although I bike outside for 2-3 hours with the exact same seat, I found it also quite hard on my butt. Mostly it was legs that gave out on me. My heart rate was still manageable, but it was the legs that died on me.

I’ve been biking for 8 years and have done multiple 100km and Gran Fondos. I did have structured training with a training coach. Just new to TR.

I’m not a stronger rider though. I find I am low cadence grinder and that higher cadence is hard on my body (back, hips, legs).

So how did over and unders go in the past?

Warlow is a tough ride. I’ve failed it and others like it before and in the past have struggled to figure out what to do after a failed workout.

I’ve tried a bunch of things but by far the most successful thing I’ve done after a failed workout is just keep moving forward with the plan I’m in. If I string together several failed workouts that’s not a good sign, but one is no big deal.

I’d just move on and keep pressing forward with your plan. A few lost TSS points will have little impact in the long run if you just stay consistent.


PLease tell more -as it got hot and humid here, I started going out with a pre-mix almost full of ice cubes (so by the time I drink it it’s half-melted).
Why would that make heat up more?

My understanding of the situation is that drinking a cold drink will have no beneficial effects on cooling you down. Though it may cause your blood vessels to tighten and thus restrict blood flow which then ultimately makes your body retain heat.

Looking at the science behind it, I found a study conducted A. R. Bain, N. C. Lesperance, and O. Jay which was published by the Acta Physiologica in 2012. The study came to the following conclusion:

**"Under conditions permitting full sweat evaporation, body heat storage is lower with warm water ingestion, kely because of disproportionate modulations in sweat output arising from warm‐sensitive thermosensors in the esophagus/stomach. Local temperature changes of the rectum following fluid ingestion exacerbate the previously identified error of thermometric heat storage estimations."

Another study came to a different but ultimately comparable result.

Although both groups significantly increased their core temperature (p<0.001) over the course of the exercise session and presented a significant decline in hydration status (p<0.001), participants in the COLD water trial had a significantly (p=0.024) smaller rise in core temperature (0.83°) over the duration of the trial in comparison to RT (1.13°). The participants in the COLD water trial were able to delay their increase in core body temperature for at least 30 minutes, whereas participants in the RT trial increased body temperature from baseline after 15 minutes. There was no significant difference between the COLD or the RT trials in broad jump and TTE performance tests. Bench press showed a small, albeit significant (p=0.046), decrease in performance when drinking COLD.

There are also articles out there which state the polar opposite. Though I am not so sure about the science behind them. What makes me sway in the other direction is that all cultures which are based in warm/hot climates eventually started drinking warm drinks and still do so.

Thank you - very useful and a little counterintuitive but it makes sense when you think about it - by artificially cooling the body it’s tricked into not cooling itself as much.
“Local temperature changes of the rectum” - must have been a fun study for the participants :wink:

Actually it was quite intuitive for me as we were always told as children to drink warm drinks in the hot months rather than their colder counterparts. Though I guess it is somewhat a cultural thing.

Anyway, looking into the matter it makes a lot of sense. Though as always, you will find enough studies that proclaim the polar opposite. I at least will go with the room temperature drinks as they are less of a hassle. Also it is easier to stomach them.

The rectum part got me giggling as well. Wonder how much they paid them to go through with that. Certainly wouldn’t expect that when signing up as a crash test dummy for that kind of topic. :slight_smile:

I had last year off the bike to concentrate on hill walking ( I retired in October yes 55 years young) I went to Nepal for 4 weeks. Came back and started back on TR in December, my first FTP was only 180… and it felt hard and subsequent was were hard too. I have followed the Base Gran Fondo MV for 6 months with Builds and Riding some 50 mile rides once per week. I am now at 250W FTP. I have Failed on some days, I now open the Window, have 3 Fans ( One floor fan, One Freestanding and Just arrived a Carpet drying style Blower) I only wear shorts, which I do use Chamy cream to help with the saddle pressure, I also have a slightly different saddle for the Turbo, Fi’zi:k Antares VSX has an added 20mm of padding. I also get a little sore just sitting, so in the recovery phase, I always stand and slow pedal for 2 minutes, that seems to do it for even the long 20 minute intervals. As to what do i do when i fail a session. I have a look at the training effort the day before, what did i eat , drink and how was my sleep. It tends to be the day before workout is still in the legs and i have not fully recovered. It has tended to be a day of VO2 max then a Threshold day after that i suffer. If I see this in the plan, I switch out one of the sessions for Sweetspot or even another recovery session. I am happy with how i have progressed. I have met my Goal for the end of Year (250W was the goal) So the rest of year, i will see what it brings. I am now on Base 1 of the HV Gran Fondo, the 90min and 2hour sessions require good music and lots of water. Here in the UK, it looks like we are getting to have 200km Audax events starting 1st August, Not Calender events, but Permanents so that looks like my target for the year now. I have stuck with TR for a couple of years apart from my year off the bike. Its great for structure, i have stuck to the structure, not much thinking to do, and it seems to have worked for me that is.

Sometimes the science nerds (I count myself lovingly among them) miss the obvious.

I prefer colder drinks, therefore I’m more likely to drink them and therefore stay hydrated.

It’s sort of like my Chinese friends telling me to drink hot tea on a hot day…not going to happen even if a lab coat tells me it’s the right things to do.

Very true! Cold water is for sure better than no water. :nerd_face: