NEWS: The Sufferfest Has Just Become "WAHOO SYSTM"

I was suprised at this as well, but as I was asked, where are TrainerDay or Join in this 18 month old article ? And were are the “news” articles on the DC Rainmaker web site about any product not in the Top 5 ? or any other cycling related web site

But I think you missed the point of the post, it wasn’t to question DC Rainmaker, it was to point out how hard it is for a new company, regardless of how good there product is, to break into this market


“I was suprised at this as well, but as I was asked, where are TrainerDay or Join in this 18 month old article ? And were are the “news” articles on the DC Rainmaker web site about any product not in the Top 5 ? or any other cycling related web site”

Is as good a question

I agree, but the whole “powerful get more powerful” part of it is true, TR and Wahoo got some free advertising because they are top 5, others don’t

While some (cough)GCN(/cough) are definitely aligned with certain products I don’t think DCR is one of them.

I suppose something’s more newsworthy (i.e. sells more copy/clicks) if it comes from a main player than a minor one. How many times do you see anything about Xert for example? So unless you’ve a product that is significantly “different” it’s unlikely to get past the sub-editor’s desk.


From the news perspective it is simple PR power. I am not surprised about DC as he has a lot of topics to cover in terms of devices so getting news about every possible software, especially if it used by 1000 people is missing the point of his channel.

But this situation is no different than any other part of the market. The bigger players will always have more PR force to establish their position even more. The market is far from cartel and it is still very fragmented and I suppose more consolidations will come or smaller players will end their life in a natural way.

Yeah, I really wish I hadn’t said that … just wanted to point out that “it’s freckin hard for companies to break in”, not discuss if it was a cartel or not (which it isn’t)

(I have edit my OP as cartel was a mistake, added nothing to the post and was distacting)


I couldn’t disagree more I think. AT feels like a hack over the fact that single ramp based FTP test doesn’t qualify the endurance and VO2max portions of the power envelope well (let alone sprint power), so those are too easy/hard for some people. Measuring them directly (4DP) is better than getting it wrong and then trying to adapt as the user fails workouts. I’d go as far as to say I wish TR would just admit their mistake here, ditch AT and do what everyone else is doing (cfr. iLevels). But then they couldn’t advertise it uses “machine learning” eh.

I’ve given Sufferfest another go as I had too many issues with AT, especially in triathlon plans (hey, there’s another area where TR is lacking…). The videos are still a ton of fun and IMHO allow me to push harder than in a comparable TR session.

But the limitations are, just like 1.5 year ago, still so weird. No option to calibrate in the app. It’s a Wahoo app with a Wahoo trainer, and it can’t calibrate it. Zwift can. TR can.

No PowerMatch. “Trainers are accurate enough”. I’ve got a SNAP. Made by Wahoo. Let me tell you: it isn’t, and in a race I need the power from my power meter. So ERG mode is out.

I’m a bit baffled they think they can compete by offering less features.

That said, if resistance mode works decently, I do plan to use up my extended trial and let my TR subscription expire for now. The Sufferfest was fun, and is fun, and if they’d fix their software issues I’d take it over TR. But they seem to have chosen not to do that. It baffles my mind.

Damn, even Zwift has decent power matching.


It’s interesting to hear the perspective from the “opposition”. I’ve been using SUF for a year now and really enjoyed the experience and humour in the videos. But I do often look across at TR and get a bit jealous about their custom plan builder and now AT. But then I remember that I’m not a pro cyclist and doing this mostly for fun, although improved fitness and performance does also come into it.

I was very tempted to move over to TR after AT was introduced, but some of the new content on SYSTM looks superb (Pro Rides and On Location) and the structured plans are actually pretty good for my simple needs (I basically follow the Fondo plans along with the base blocks). I’m not sure I could get on with TR’s graphical interface as I’m not into watching random vids while trying to smash out an interval session. I need something relevant and motivating in front of me and SUF videos on the whole do provide that context. So I think I’ll stick with it for another year, along with Zwift for group rides and the odd race.

The move over to the new platform is a bit meh at the moment, but I don’t think it’s really been fully implemented yet. All the old videos are still there along with some great looking new content and the plan builder has got a few extra touches like the option of 2:1 vs 3:1 training cycles. But that’s about all for the moment.


From the Introducing Adaptive Training forum thread that announced AT:

So yeah, while some will take offense at the term, AT is a ‘hack’ to work around:

  • Ramp Testing as a single metric to base training on, if FTP estimate is too high/low
  • Above threshold work that must be individualized and treated independent of FTP (Coggan iLevels from 6 years ago)
  • Further customize workouts in terms of time-in-zone and number of intervals, based on the athlete’s fitness and ability to recover

That doesn’t make AT bad. And to be clear - you don’t need AT or ML to do the items above. What AT promises is to make it as easy as following a plan in exchange for a subscription fee. That is exactly what some people want, they have no real interest in self-coaching or hiring a coach.

But that doesn’t make AT better than other options. I get better results following a different approach to base, and TR doesn’t offer that approach, so why would I use TR base plans? AT isn’t going to give me another approach, it uses the TR approach and adapts workouts based on my fitness/feedback.

SUF did add support for Android, I’d say that was their first priority. I’ve no plans to use SYSTM, will be interesting to see what happens over the next year.


I certainly understand that was a priority. It was one of the reasons to switch to TR for me. Though nowadays I use Macbook Air so it’s not as necessary - the Android app gets used to quickly check and mark running workouts.

About the Mac: SYSTM has a native version for the new Macs, whereas TR still has to run under emulation. Not that showing the bar graph is performance limited, though :slight_smile:

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I’ve had great success with the sufferfest app over the years, but for some reason I keep leaving it and coming back to TR, where my FTP stagnates and falls, I keep coming back because of the FOM, but AT was the last straw for me

I’m currently using Systm, and xert and it’s working well for me at the moment

I get the feeling that this release was about getting the new platform out, getting android out, and setting the base, it appears that they have a lot of changes coming, included (according to dc rainmaker) the ability to manage hardware from inside the app

I don’t think they have, there are plenty of things coming in the next few months, and as TR have proved with AT, software development takes time, some of the things they have promised are in the dcrainmaker article

I’ve found that using an app to control the trainer is overrated. One user experience for both indoor and outdoor workouts - my bike computer for the win :rofl:


Highly infections vowel eating virus continues to ravage the bike industry.

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Things like this make me feel very old. I have no idea what that bike does or who rides it.


It is a dirt jumping / dirt track bike…

But what a horrible name…I was literally thinking “Stacked??? Why would anyone name a dirt jumping bike Stacked?”…took a google search for me to realize it was Stitched.



I was like, “Stached?” :rofl:

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What unit do you use? I find that when I use my Garmin to control the trainer, power is all over the place.

At the start of the workout I put the Kickr in standard/level mode, level =2, and it’s basically like riding outside.

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This year I’ve given significant time to trying out Sufferfest, Fulfaz, Zwift, Bkool and TrainerRoad.
I found that, just for me, TrainerRoad is the stand out best. I enjoy focusing on the objectives with clear supporting stats. And it’s great to choose my own videos /music for the perfect accompaniment.

Surprisingly, Fulgaz was the next best, feeling very close to riding outdoors, but with poor workplans.

A shout out too for Bkool’s super Velodrome offering.

Sufferfest workouts were unremittingly tough with boring videos and one repetitive bad joke. I was glad to be rid.

Surprisingly to me, Zwift was irritating in the extreme. The repetitive intrusions distracted from my effort (I resorted to muting and listening to music). I found the graphics tedious and pointless, and the wworkouts to be badly designed.

This is what it comes back to for me….the TR plans provide me the structure I need, but I am not tied to someone else’s decision as to what I will watch / listen to.

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yeah the zwift plans are pretty awful