Just a quick one on my experience of this test protocol - I tried i last year, went into it with previous Ramp Test number in mind, and scraped through to 35ish minutes which in hindsight was definitely over threshold.
Having done 3 tests now since starting training in October, I think I get it. The RPE, the mindset and funnily enough, quickly have the confidence in both the result and the ability to repeat it.
FYI I am training for TT’s so am doing it on the extensions, with TTE around 50 minutes which is target event time.
Isn’t this FTP test a self-fulfilling prophecy in a sense? I mean it sounds a bit like: “guesstimate” your FTP and then see how long you can hold it. But how do you know it is actually your FTP (MLSS) and not some other point in the 30-70min range of your PD curve?
Ok, personally I’m incapable of “feeling” my FTP… I mean I can feel the power I can hold for a certain duration - e.g. tell me to go all-out for 50min, I’ll normally do a pretty good and steady job at it, but I have no clue if this was my MLSS or not.
Edit: Maybe I just haven’t done sufficiently long all-out tests. I think the longest was actually 50min. Didn’t feel steady or sustainable at all XD.
Its a weird ceiling where if you go a little higher (say 10W) you just know you have 1 minute in you, but at that point it feels hard but sustainable. Also I won’t lie. Knowing my LTHR seems to help
This is why there is the progression. They are designed, when informed by a reasonably fed model, to get you close and let you learn where that edge is. Knowing how to ‘feel’ FTP is pretty useful.
IMO/IME, and I’m not sure if you’re already doing this, but it might be a sign to use erg mode less often.
My n=1 is that when I stopped using erg mode on my trainer for the majority of my workouts, I was not only able to “feel” FTP better, but the majority of my workouts and perception improved across all intensities. It also translated much better to riding outdoors
If you put out an effort and raise the watts gradually, you will definitely get to a point where it feels ‘hard, but sustainable’. Push over that and it starts getting exponentially more painful.
Problem is that is the first 10 minutes or so when you’re fresh can muddy the water somewhat. That’s why these tests start with 5-10 mins just under FTP to burn of some of that freshness. Experiment in your threshold workouts if you’re interested.
FWIW I struggle with resistance mode for doing this protocol. That’s mainly because my trainer bike has a triple chainring (terrible chainline) and is only 8 speed, so I have a limited gearing selection. That means I often find myself at undesirable cadences to hold the wattage I want, or else going a little under/over target.
Yes, this is my experience as well. I’ve been enjoying doing threshold intervals going up long climbs on Zwift, and after a bit of looking at the numbers early on in the interval, I find that FTP is quite an “easy” number to hit with reasonable accuracy.
Seems like a lot of others have already answered this, but yes, it kind of is “guesstimate your FTP” and then validate it. It’s not a self-fulfilling thing at all because it is about feeling MLSS and riding at it as long as you can sustain. It’s almost as much a TTE test and FTP validation as anything. If you believe in “training is testing and testing is training”, there’s a great chance you already have your FTP dialed in before you ever test it.
Specifically, KM wrote about coming out of a block of training prior to this test and making an estimate of FTP. He suggested adding 3-8W to your FTP if you feel like there’s been a boost, and then making that your original test target. E.g. My mFTP was 272 up to 274 from this training block - I’ve been training to a 275W FTP. However I did a 15 min MMP test last week which would suggest my FTP is closer to 280, so I’ll start the next test riding at about 270 or so, and over the first ten minutes I’ll build it to 280 or wherever I feel “it”, and then I’ll ride it out as long as possible.
The reason this test wouldn’t be great coming off of a long layoff should be obvious. So you can come in with a four-test PDC developed and get a good mFTP to go from at the start of a season, or you could do something like a TR ramp test or traditional 20-min FTP test to get a good estimated number, then perform this test later in the week to get a TTE start value. (All of that is probably unnecessary, but if you just had to have that info before you started training, you could do it.)
I don’t mean that to sound elitist - I love TrainerRoad for what it is and understand why it is the way it is. I’m still an annual subscriber, still listen to the podcast, and obviously still participate here. But there is definitely a learning curve with this type of testing and power modeling and training based upon it.
I’ve deleted it. Obviously missed the mark, as I wasn’t saying anything about anyone being too “dumb” at all, just that most TR users aren’t diving into their analytics via WKO or something else. Some are, but - I have no stats to back this up - I would guess a broad majority are not.
I apologize for writing it in the first place. I did not intend to imply that anyone was dumb, and am sorry if that’s how it came across.
Thanks for the extensive reply . I’m actually as far from being a “standard TR user” as one can get, actually I’m mainly here for the interesting forum content.
I think in the end a lot comes down to personal preference. For me there are just too many uncontrolled variables in the progression you describe (I’m a mathematician by training so I have a problem with “uncontrolled” stuff XD), I prefer the plain old PD curve.
I do agree that “feeling” one’s effort is important, but for me there is just not one magical power “FTP” where everything is different. (I mean, going 10w harder and blowing up way earlier would just as well be the case for a 5min test as well .)
For practical purposes I haven’t had a problem with not feeling my FTP so far - in the real world as a climber/time-trialist it’s more important to pace an effort over a fixed distance/duration rather than feel the magical FTP.
There’s no one magical number. It changes day-to-day… it’s just the feeling of MLSS (which you’re well acquainted with) and the associated narrow range of power for a day where you’re coming in relatively rested that makes a good “number”.
Yes, there is a power where you can sustain the effort for a long time, and a power somewhat higher where you can’t. That should not be construed as “at 250W I can go for an hour with a steady burn, but at 251W I’ll blow up in ten minutes.” More like “At 250W I can go for an hour with a steady burn, but at 260W, I’ll blow up in twenty minutes.” FTP is essentially a small range of powers associated with MLSS. Anyone who tells you with certainty their FTP within a single watt is fooling themselves. In the example above, say you test at 252W, and set your training FTP at 255W for your threshold and below work, and move on with your life.
FTP itself has become this thing that’s widely misinterpreted in a number of different ways, including the thought that it’s a single fixed number (e.g. “Hour Power”). It’s part of the reason that training based solely on FTP isn’t optimal for a lot of people. That said, it is relatively easy to understand and execute, and can be very effective for many people.
Had my first go at the Baseline test this evening after a great training block at 255. I created a workout so that I could use Erg and used the plus and minus buttons accordingly (in resistance mode I always feel between gears).
I had a figure of 262 ish in my head as a 3 percent bump.
Set off at 245 and worked up for the first 10 minutes. Then sat at 263 for 15 minutes and then ramped up at about 1 watt per minute for 15 minutes, and then ran out of workout. Average for that block ends up at 266.
I had more in the legs but at the same time I don’t want to train at an overly high number and destroy myself in build.
Do you think 266 is a good number to go with? Should my next effort in 4 weeks time be to go to progression 1?
I’m not too worried about TTE just want a good training number and have found the ramp test to explode my lungs before legs (think thats my asthma) and the other tests annoy me as always between gears.
The fact your ERG workout ended before you reached exhaustion suggests you could’ve probably done more work (TTE and possibly FTP is higher than your result). However, I agree with the above - may as well see how it goes at 265w. Would think you’ll be fine to move onto the next progression next time.
. I’m actually as far from being a “standard TR user” as one can get, actually I’m mainly here for the interesting forum content.
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