I decided to have a ago at along test the other day, may be a dumb question but how far to exhaustion do people go? I find the ramp test fairly easy in that regard as I go till I can’t turn the pedals, but with the long test, exhaustion sets in very slowly. I got to 50min but could have squeezed more out even though I felt pretty cooked, I guess I just gave up mentally?
either way my 50 min average gave me the same number as a ramp test 2 days prior. so I can confidently rely on ramp test numbers going forward. not sure i would want to do a long test every 4-6 weeks.
Ramp FTP and TTE FTP – even though they may be the same number – are the result of different systems (or more precisely, a different mix of the same systems).
I’ve done both, a lot, and have got the same result from both, but I trust the TTE FTP far more than the ramp result. It also provides much more actionable information than a ramp test.
If you could’ve squeezed out another few minutes, it would probably make a minimal difference to FTP value (+/-1w) if you carried on at the same level. What I’d recommend is ramping the effort up if you’ve had enough until you actually reach exhaustion.
I understand your point though. Despite never having issues with the prescribed number from the ramp test I was curious in validation froma long test. I was expecting a lower number, but has been a valuable exercise nonetheless.
My point was that it is quite a physically and mentally taxing test, and would rather continue to use a ramp test if it works for me.
As this test was done at the end of a base block (some threshold, long S/S and lots of Z2) i am curious to do another test after a build block (ie lots of Vo2max work).
If you do that you might expect the top end training to drag up your ramp test number even if your FTP hasn’t actually moved. I don’t know that for sure though, it’s a question of whether your FTP as a % of top end power changes with training.
I see two benefits of the long test: first I believe the number more than a short test and setting an FTP too high for threshold intervals is a problem. Second it gives an idea of how much work to do to push yourself to improve.
For example, my TTE is not great so I am happy doing ten minute intervals that in total add up to my TTE. As I get fitter I would increase the interval length or number to reflect an improving TTE, which is (as he says on the podcast) progressive overload.
The bonus benefit is that the test is a pretty good threshold workout. He has done a couple of podcasts on threshold training, the second being a listener questions one. I feel like I learned a lot from both and I am really enjoying that aspect of training now.
I’ve tested this test and ramp back to back a few times and its always different for me. The type of training u have been doing going into a ramp test can skew it up or down at times
Of course the relationship between FTP and Pmax changes. Bernal can put out 6 w/kg for over an hour but probably can’t sprint much higher than 10-12 w/kg. Track guys can do 10 w/kg for 60s but don’t crack 4 w/kg for 60min.
Both are dependent on genetic predisposition. Both are based on what training you do. The genetics and training to be good at one generally rob the other.
Two things. WKO5 adds some small noise to TTE because apparently it’s a highly sensitive output that could give away their algorithm. Secondly, I believe KM mentioned on the podcast it usually underestimates without truly maximal looooong efforts, like 2h+ IIRC.
That is what I assumed too. I know the ratio can vary widely between individuals, but I wasn’t sure to what extent it would be altered by training (e.g. an FTP block) for one person.
I’ve been able to do ~1000w from, basically, day 1. My FTP has gone up over 50% since I’ve started and it’s not unreasonable to think it could double eventually. If I could double my pmax… I would be thrilled.
Had my first go at the baseline test today. Much less mentally taxing than the 20 minute test. It just confirmed what I’m currently working too, which is fair given how training has gone since Christmas. One thing I wasn’t sure of - I could probably have ground out a minute or two out of the saddle at the end?
Anyway, I have the ramp test scheduled for Thursday, so it will be interesting to see how that goes (I think mentally it may be easier with an “FTP” already banked) and how it compares.
That might have extended your TTE by a minute or two and changed your average power by a couple of watts at most but it wouldn’t have been enough to have made a big difference.
Yeah, even getting up the ramp for nearly 5 minutes didn’t make much difference. Anyway, plan builder has a 4 week SSB2 block (3 + recovery), and then I have prog 1 scheduled.
Grinding a couple of extra minutes probably won’t change the result at all, except your TTE which might help you choose appropriate total interval times going forward. If you did the test within trainerroad you can use the ride analysis to show this: ‘capture’ the active portion of the test with the sliders then move the slider at the end of the portion left and right. You’ll see that the average power for the portion barely changes.
I was thinking of doing one and a ramp in the same week too. If you do could you let us know your thoughts?
Edited: as KM points out on the podcasts even the best power meters will have a margin of error of at least a couple of Watts, a bigger number than slogging for another minute or two on the protocol.
Sorry to interrupt the discussion. But as someone without an ANT+ dongle and no Access to a laptop to install the workout creator: how would I go about doing the Kolie Moore FTP test protocol? Can I download a fit file and load it onto my Edge 530 to do it? I guess ERG wouldn’t work with that, right? Any other solutions/workarounds?
Start recording on your bike computer. Get on your trainer. Warm up. Ride to just under threshold for 10 minutes. Start gently ramping. Go till you can’t.
If someone has made the protocol in their own workout creator and then invited you to a team you can load it and do it as far as I know. Someone did that for some KM style VO2 interval sessions, I’m not sure if anyone has done it for the test protocol.
