I am in an FTP build phase and I love the new AI-driven recommendations for my moderate program. But I also run. Does the program take into account the training stress of other uploaded activities, such as my running?
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Welcome.
Fatigue management does. This is a seperate feature to AI workouts, which you can enable, automate or disable.
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Yes in parts. So fatigue management might show yellow or red day and workouts on those days get reduced to endurance or skipped (if you use the default settings for fatigue management in settings).
But unfortunately it seems only duration is taken into account and not intensity of runs:
…have a look starting from here:
https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/trainerroad-ai-beta-testing/107104/4160
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Thank you for the link. While I am using TR now for increasing my FTP, which I have neglected, I usually prioritize my structured running especially in a 14-16 week marathon build and would prefer that TR was fully able to take that into account. I can manage the two sometimes competing piorities but was hoping the AI tool would manage overall fatigue and take that into account for cycling workouts. I suspect this is something that could be done with a broader metric than just FTP or TSS.
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It seems that I have fatigue management on so that’s at least one variable that’s taken into account.
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If you run a regular structure, then TR learns that this doesn’t faitigue you enough to impact the bike - for example, I ran a Tuesday night group run sane day roughly same 1hr time every night for months. I had no fatigue management the Wednesdays.
Now I have not done that for a long time, I get red days on Wednesday but those should fade to yellow and entirely if I ramp up slowly over time and don’t go straight into full one hour sessions from nothing.
It depends what you mean by manage overall fatigue, but I don’t think TSS is a useful measure for run or any other discipline, and fatigue management is definitely in that space.
I have kind of found the same now that I’ve been doing 5-10k runs a few times a week for several months now. I know those aren’t long runs for a lot of people, but for me, replacing an easy ride or just adding a run as an extra activity doesn’t seem to trigger the fatigue management the way I would expect. I go in and rate the runs harder than they felt in order to get the TSS in line with what I see in TP and intervals, but even then, it doesn’t seem to trigger a yellow/red day like I would expect. My rides trigger a yellow, I do a run on the yellow day that leaves me tired the following morning, but TR almost always has that following morning as clear (green?).
Have you found a better way to manage this?
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Just did HM at maximum effort, my previous longest run was shorter and lower effort.
TrainerRoad think I should be doing harder climbing workout today. I am thinking either full rest or 30min recovery spin.
Not very confidence inspiring.
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According to Nate Fatigue management is not driven by AI but by a functions of TSS…and for runs I think the TSS component is just derived from duration (but not intensity or run power or GAP or HR) which these examples show. @Nate_Pearson would like to hear which factors drive run fatigue (so we know the dials we have and the dials that don’t work) and what changes are planned.
@caro in my above quotes you see other data points to this discussion https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/trainerroad-ai-beta-testing/107104/4160?u=rizzi and your involvement here:
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No. I’m rearranging my workouts based on daily feel. But I’m not on a TR plan so not too much of a hassle.
Sorry, for clarity, I was asking how to get yellows and reds to trigger “appropriately” for runs. I think the answer is in your other post about the “fun exercise”. I might try overrating them even more to get the trigger and not worry about if the TSS matches TP/Intervals.
I think my “fun exercise” showed that rating doesn’t play a factor at all, only duration matters. I had 110min run easy trigger yellow but 100min run all out trigger nothing. So you could just add manual time to the run or additional compensation activity on the calendar. Too much hassle for me.
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Oh shoot. You’re right.
I’ve ended up waffling so here’s a summary:
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If you are deciding how hard your next ride workout should be, running stress adds nothing except in extreme cases
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Overall fatigue I do look at Garmin load, running hours - but mostly I’m looking at running consistency as I really struggle with this. Cycling fatigue isn’t the limiting factor, it’s available time and how heavy I am.
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And now, The Waffle:
I did similar to you a ways back, but what I came to realise was that there is a difference between running fatigue and cycling fatigue. That doesn’t sound revolutionary, but bear with me!
When we are using load or training stress to express fatigue it’s often because we imagine that all stress on the body sort of accumulates together in a bucket to a point where we need to stop doing things. And to some degree that’s true, but.
I can be completely ruined by a run, and cycle fine. Like a failed marathon, 5hrs blown apart standing is painful. Injured even. And the next day execute a sweet spot or endurance hour fine. Maybe hr is a few beats higher.
Obviously thats extreme, and would you benefit when your body is repairing so much damage, but it makes a point. I’m not gaining anything by taking non-cycling stress into account when planning cycling.
The other way round is not true though, a very hard bike will demotivate me from running at all. And if I get out I’ll be sluggish.
I can’t get much from the running community, triathletes or otherwise it’s basically…
- Run more
- See step 1
- Run slower
- Run faster
- Have you tried step 1?
So complex metrics and calculations don’t really add much. And sticking to a structure with two or three hard days per week overall is all you need.
Currently I’m running short and slow and frequent, keeping an eye on how I feel.
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