to be clear, Anaerobic Threshold (AnT) is defined on the INSCYD website as the intensity at which lactate production matches consumption. In other words, AnT is maximum lactate steady state (MLSS). And this matches Coggan/Allen’s definition of functional threshold power (FTP).
What you are arguing is that some cyclists may overestimate FTP when using shorter protocols like 8-min test, 20-min test, and ramp test.
In my case, I’ve seen good alignment of FTP estimates from the 8-min, 20-min, and 60-min tests. However I often see underestimation of FTP using the ramp test, and manually increase FTP to match estimates obtained using longer tests.
My point is that you might want to consider there are two sides to a bell curve, and it is also possible to underestimate FTP using the TR ramp test protocol (or any protocol).
I’ve booked VO2max/gas exchange test for 16th. I’d be too fatigued this Tuesday after my 200k with limited fuel on Sunday. This weekend’s easier so I’ll be fresh.
If that’s directed at me; I bought a Lactate Scout 4 lactate meter and a buddy took the sample readings. The protocol was given by Steve Neal and he ran the data we collected through the INSCYD software.
Sorry, it was directed to you. I thought it might be Steve. We have another interesting podcast or two coming up with him on this very topic. Should be an interesting show. Steve and I have been talking quite a bit. He’s a smart guy!
So then that confirms the test was done with the same bike/PM as some of your previous rides? That was a question a few of us had, as there are some good performances in the last month that don’t quite jive with the tests. When did you perform the lactate tests?
I understand it’s a rate metric, as in the higher the number the faster you produce lactate. Someone with a 0.9 VLaMax will end up at roughly 18 mmol after a 20 second maximal effort. When you say top out at 13-14 mmol, what duration/intensity level?
ahh - I see what you mean. 3-4 MIN max efforts and 75 second max efforts pending which protocol we use. Hand held lactate readers are known to have errors at higher lactate readings, so that is a challenge. I am yet to see 20 mmmol/L but that could be lab error, but do see plenty in the ~15 realm after a 3-4 MIN all out effort or even a 75 second effort. VLAMAX units are mmol/sec/l for those interested. Fun to test different types of riders and see the values.
Good points and just pointing out what I see as the most common mistake that can lead to poor training and I believe is relevant to the original post about glycogen dependence. Bell curvers and outliers on both sides for sure. I’ll leave the FTP/AnT/MLSS/OBLA debate alone.
Ha, I didn’t make the connection from your user name! Thanks for turning me on to him. That 1st podcast just resonated with me, and his approach just sounded so right on. I’ve now turned my training planning over to him. TR brought me pretty far—and I’ll continue to be an avid fan and supporter of the service—but I’m trusting Steve to take me to a new level in long endurance events.
Yes; same bike and same trainer, for the most part as my recent previous rides. However, the other bikes I’ve used also have Quarq PMs, and I’m cognizant to calibrate before my rides.
I did the test a little over a week ago on June 29th; about 3 weeks after my most recent “Ramp Test”—not the TR Ramp Test, but one with 3 minute steps—indicated 285 as my “FTP”.
Ha ha, yes I understand. In my opinion Coggan/Allen’s definition of FTP is quite clear - FTP is a proxy for AnT/MLSS for those without access to lab testing of lactate. And that is where clarity on the term FTP begins and ends…
I think you made a wise choice! After Leadville there is a really good chance Steve will be guiding me as well. We’ve been talking through a lot. He’s an endless source of knowledge and a nice guy.
We are also working on having Sebastian on the show. These podcasts can take weeks of reading to get up to speed. That’s the problem with interviewing such smart people. You have to have a good understanding of rather deep topics to make the show informative for the listeners. I’m certainly not complaining. I really enjoy the process. We are hoping to have Steve and Sebastian on the same show!
Coggan has changed it so much it isnt quite clear, considering he’s also saying that you can estimate it with your best 1 hour NP effort. In recent Hunter Allen interviews he still uses the term as 1 hour power.
Since you have your own lactate meter, you can do a few steps closer to 240. Your own data supports that your lactate levels were in equilibrium at the first 5 minute block you did, but then you jump all the way up to 285. Start with the 5 minutes at 240, then you can easily try out 5 minutes at 250, test, if still level, try 5 minutes at 260. The data you have still says that your MLSS is above 230 watts since the 243 block was at or below LT2.
How does the 3 minute test show 285? Even if you consider the last level as your VO2 max, that’s still quite a high percentage of that value to estimate as FTP. 85% of your 3 minute best was closer to 265- 270 and 85% fractional utilization is pretty high.
there have been numerous discussions here about whether or not FTP is one hour power or not, so I don’t think we need to rehash that it has been completely muddied from the original functional test, and now trying to align it was a physiological state, which can be maintained in "a semi-quasi steady state for 40-70 minutes)
