I wonder what is you best 5min Power and at how many Watts are your Redlake intervals? Also whats your max hr and lthr?
I self-estimate my ftp (indoor) at 225 and outdoor at 230-235, and currently intervals.icu put me at 221-222 (always lower when training inside, it tends to overestimate when I ride outside).
Intervals.icu gives me 243w (42days) or 259 watts (this season) for 5min best power.
Max heartrate I have no clue. I use the guesstimate of 220 - age which would make it somewhere around 188 for me. In VO2Max trainings in which I think afterwards âhow have I been able to pull this offâ I reach 175-176.
Never estimated my lactate threshold so far, so I cannot tell you that. Should I test for it? Can I do that using TR?
Finally, Red Lake +8 intervals max heartrate at the end of each respective interval was 175. But that was a bad week, I had a fever the week before and started SSB just again. My typical heartrate is around 170. For my current FTP of 225, target is 243.
I donât have any science to back this up, but I believe that the ramp test combined with most TR programs tends to give too high of an FTP. If you look at TRâs plans, they have considerably more intensity than most other plans, and a TON of above threshold/VO2 work in the build phases. Combined with the relatively short riding duration in low and mid volume plans, this leaves riders with a really strong top end but not the muscular endurance to sustain that same type of work for a hour. Obviously this training lends well to a ramp test which is really like a gradual 5 min max power test, but not as well to a 20 min or longer protocol.
I personally use the ramp test as a relative benchmark, but tend to manually input and adjust my FTP based on how I perform in workouts. I use my heart rate and perceived exertion to dictate whether interval âfeelâ in the right zone- for example, SS should feel hard but sustainable for long periods of time (over an hour) and HR should be near but below threshold. Over-unders should be difficult but not impossible- HR should plateau or even fall slightly on the unders. VO2s should be extremely difficult particularly on longer intervals with HR approaching Z5. I have found that using this allows me to consistently hit my target zones without digging myself a training hole or impacting future workouts.
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Well my own n=1, is that Iâve been pretty consistent with my plans this year and the ramp still significantly underestimates my FTP compared to what longer tests or self estimated verified with Lamarck gives me. Fang Mountain +1 completed at 100% this morning at that self selected FTP.
Iâm not saying youâre wrong, but suspect it may depend on the plans followed if you are right. Iâve been consistent with Sustained Power plans, as they were/ are my A events.
Also, if you are right, and people are using it for TrainerRoad plans and those intensities, would it not make it an appropriate test for setting the TrainerRoad zones, even if it wasnât necessarily reflective of hour power?
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Interessting⌠yeah basically how it works for me (endurance focus), I ride a 6 or 8 min threshold interval (the toughest for me) and if my HR is too high or I feel I cannot sustain it (getting burning legs before half of interval etc), I decide âwell my FTP is too highâ and I turn it down.
VO2Max intervals series of 5/6 x 1-2mins is easy for me, so are the longer 3x30min or 3x20min sweetspot intervals, and the thresholds with spikes are also relatively easy for me. So I can always give more power there than in threshold workouts with longer intervals. And I find that weird, because I train especially for endurance and on the road I can go for hours on end in zone 2/3, but my FTP a tad too high and I feel like dying iin a 6-8 min threshold interval.
Iâm the opposite - give me threshold/ supra threshold/ sweet spot all day long. VO2 max I have to reduce intensity a bit, but not as low as the ramp test would have me.
In terms of TrainerRoad, I really think we are outliers. The guys have the data, particularly regarding completion levels of workouts based off the Ramp Test, to show it works in terms of setting zones for TrainerRoad. Whether that is a real FTP is a different thing.
And I think those of us that are outliers on the ramp test are just noisy. A bit like only seeing negative feedback of trainers/ electronics etc online! 
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Yeah, I think so true. There are many other topics on this and a lot of people just guesstimate every so many weeks what there ftp would or should be based on feel and completion.
From a statistical perspective, I wonder how strongly an ftp test influences completion rate (e.g., beta, effect size, proportion explained variance), and how the distribution of residuals looks, e.g., in terms of regressions, how many people are off the regression line (outliers). I guess for people like me, we are probably contributing to the error term.
Youâre absolutely right that it does depend on the type of plan and athlete. The ramp test also underestimates my FTP because Iâm a diesel engine with a really low top end, further limited by the fact that I do all my testing and workouts in the aero position. I basically get to a point where I can keep going at the current wattage but canât bring up the wattage to the next target.
My comment was more reflective of how many people on here talk about how hard sweetspot is. To me, this is a classic case of having your FTP set too high which turns sweetspot into threshold. Something like Tallac or Eclipse or Galena should not be THAT hard- yes itâs not comfortable but you should be able to sustain that pace for a couple of hours with proper fueling. If someone canât sustain 90% of FTP for 20â, there is no way their FTP is set correctly.
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Yes. I go with I can watch and comprehend TV or Podcasts doing sweet spot. Iâm able to cope with the cognitive load.
Figured I would provide an update for anyone who cares!
-Did Sustained Power Build MV at 343 FTP (only 5 weeks of it due to Plan Builder). 343 was too easy. So I would add in some IF.
-Decided to do a Ramp Test at the beginning of the rest week within Sustained Power Build MV, just out of curiosity. I had a really crappy sleep the night before and got 333W. So I just kept it at 343W.
-Did the ramp test again after the recovery week (as prescribed). I cracked at point that would have given me around 333W again, but for some reason I decided to pause for a quick backpedal and see how much more I could get. This âRamp Test with a breakâ (i.e. cheating) resulted in 350W. I decided to take this number as my FTP.
-I started the next phase of my plan at 350W (SS Base 2 MV). Still kind of easy, so Iâve been adding 3% to most of the workouts in order to do the workouts at effectively a 360W. This feels right.
-Did Darwin today - 3 sets at 103% and the fourth at 106%. All good.
Hypothesis
-The FTP in which I start the Ramp Test affects the result. So on my next ramp test, if I start at my current FTP of 350W I will get one result. If I increase my FTP to say 375W just for the Ramp Test I will probably get a different result.
-Powermatch performance affects the Ramp Test result. In my last Ramp Tests, Powermatch had a hard time keeping up with the target power for the last couple of ramp steps, so I wasnât getting âfull creditâ. Yeah, if it was right on target I would have ended a little earlier, but I still think I would have scored better had Powermatch kept closer to target power.
Anyways, Iâm still going to keep doing the Ramp Test as prescribed but whether or not I accept the result as my FTP will depend and how the result aligns to recent performances. So if I successfully complete SS Base II MV at effectively an FTP of 360 (350 + 3%) and my next Ramp Test result is significantly lower, I will have further evidence that Ramp Test result is a misleading data point in isolation.
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I do find that when Iâm fresh, no fatigue in legs, that 90% of FTP can be done for hours. Itâs when your on the end of a 3 week block of workouts and the fatigue has built up (Iâm old and donât recovery well!), that SS workout can be hard. Doesnât mean your FTP is set wrong, maybe just your training plan!
My Fatigue level for me has a big impact on what I can maintain and when and I am working on that.
Interesting point. Excess fatigue impacts my V02max efforts more than anything as I tend to be better at longer steady state stuff.
My overall point is that I like the Ramp Test, but itâs not always reliable for me.
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I agree with you regarding the starting FTP for ramp-tests having quite a big impact as you have to go both longer and harder to bump FTP. A 10w difference in starting FTP can mean a pretty big difference in end result.
I guess in reality this is quite helpful as you only get an FTP increase when you are absolutely ready for it. Downside is you may find yourself just bumping up intensity in the meantime.
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Iâm also more of a steady state guy, with weak VO2 performance. (Ironically, my wife is diametrically opposed, killer VO2 and very poor at SS to threshold). My n=1 is that I have found it best for me to use a test piece like Lamarck or Grey as my fitness assessment. The thinking is that I have two options:
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I can do the Ramp Test and have VO2 intervals be in the right zone but have to adjust intensity up on every single threshold and below workout I do to get it in the right zone
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I can do a long form assessment (doesnât matter what test) and then adjust down the VO2 workouts to a repeatable level. This is fewer workouts to adjust and VO2 performance increases quickly with training so my capability comes up fast and eventually I dont have to adjust the VO2 work at all
In the end, you can do either assessment (or both!) - the numbers are just guidance. Bumping a workout intensity up or down is just how training goes because as you say, the Ramp can provide skewed guidance if youâre tired, had a big workout the day before, had too much caffeine, etc. Itâs good to use as much data as you can from different assessments as well as your daily performance to guide your training
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When you say it was too easy, so you have to increase the workout intensity with 3%, does that match the RPE & Heart rate implication of the original workout?
The workouts in SSB1 & SSB2 arenât supposed to be âhardâ, all out, dying by the end. Itâs supposed to be sweet spot, building base. Everyone with a correct set FTP should be able to increase the intensity and still be able to hang on. But instead of base training, it then becomes threshold/build phase training.
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Thatâs a good point about fatigue. Some days are just hard for everyone- yesterday for example, I just woke up tired and felt flat. Heart rate was up and it felt like a slog to hold 85% of FTP. This morning, no problem holding 3x20â at 92% FTP with 5â at 70% between.
Itâs more of an issue of inflated FTP where SS sessions are repeatedly hard, even shorter or easier sessions. If youâre breathing hard or feel beat al the time during SS sessions, thereâs a good chance youâre actually working at threshold and not SS. Even if SS feels tough on a day, it should be very infrequently that you actually fail a workout (bailing because youâre tired or HR is high is different, Iâm talking where you canât physically push the pedals anymore).
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Yeah, so for Darwin yesterday the additional IF made it feel about right with respect to HR and RPE.
If workouts like Raymond and Red Lake are relatively easy then the number you have been using as your FTP is likely too low.
Perhaps worth to consider: VO2Max isnât for everybody 120% of FTP. Meaning your former FTP might have been correct and your VO2Max is simply 115% of FTP. Also worth to consider, FTP doesnât always go up. Itâs normal to expect some sort of decrease over time (especially at the end of a intense training cycle).
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Yeah, I used to use Grey for my assessment as well. It worked well enough for me for a while and when my power was going in the right direction. But I found it harder to use with respect to recognizing when I needed to reduce my power targets. In other words, when my workouts started not go so well I found excuses not to assess my fitness using Grey.
Just did Lamarck at 361W and felt like I had more in the tank:
It will be very interesting to compare this to my next Ramp Test in a little less than two weeks.