To paraphrase F. Scott Fitzgerald, actively entertaining two conflicting ideas simultaneously is something we should aspire to.
The ramp-critical guys have a strong argument. Firstly, they find “manual FTP” a very effective way to use TR, empirically showing good results from this method. Also, many of them are experienced cyclists, who can “feel” when a workout intensity and interval duration are mismatched / sub-optimal. They suggest the ramp test serves them poorly, for this reason. This is compelling, coming from experienced people.
While a large majority of TR users are very well served by “ramp + adaptations”, there is a sizeable minority who find it demonstrably sub-optimal. This is a group for whom the ramp test is especially poor at FTP prediction. For majority of TR users, the ramp is adequate and highly convenient / easy, but not for this group. I’d also guess this group skews more experienced, those people being more likely to correctly identify the mis-measurement, and resulting pathologies in the recommended workouts. I think the friendly TR devs have provided the ability to manually set FTP to ensure that this group (or anyone with similar inclination) is accommodated.
There are probably some users who are poorly served by the ramp test, but don’t know it. That’s a pity, and hopefully some advice from the forum or TR can set them on a good path.
It’s not clear to me that this shortcoming justifies discouraging / criticising the ramp test for everyone else though (and I’m not suggesting anyone did). Such a discussion would soon lead us to endless variants of the Trolley problem - Wikipedia. (Which I encourage, for anyone so inclined).
Apologies to the OP @gbonhomme . I’ll terminate my FTP side-track here. Someone mentioned alternate measurement methods, and I wanted to make sure I hadn’t missed a TR feature.
Respectfully, there are a number of flaws in your thinking here, and I’ve emboldened them; no they don’t, subjective assumptions are effectively random, and there is no assumption based on FTP alone - your PLs Are King, not FTP.
They have defined seperate progression levels for a reason, a training reason. There is no logic in selecting workouts “to see if you can do them” - this is the opposite of effective training, it’s akin to racing.
Your last paragraph is excellent, and I would add that appropriately following planned workouts and ticking the workout survey lets TR “dial in workout intensities” for you, saving everyone a lot of hassle.
But - and I notice we’ve tangled on this for a long time now - FTP just isn’t as important as people think. Not here, not anywhere except TP, and not twenty years ago either I’m afraid.
FTP is, essentially, dead. It exists in our discussions for reasons of popularity and nothing more. See Andy’s opinions for more!
This is now largely irrelevant, the only important thing is whether they get the next appropriate workout, which they will if they do a workout and fill out the survey and are consistently progressing over time.
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How many people on this thread are actually using TR and TR plan builder?
Hi, the one I contest is one I quoted. There’s a million reasons a newbie struggles with training but most of them are really simple.
The second point is an opinion, you are welcome to although I have no insight into the TR AI so I can’t truly be defending SkyNet
The third, actually I don’t see the relevance so I’m neither contesting nor agreeing, it looks like a red herring as my point is the overstated importance of “true” FTP however you try to find it.
It is a factor, but not the only factor, for TR. The most important thing is the PL of the last workout you completed or attempted, plus how you performed and how you responded to the survey.
In time I see no reason we will even see FTP in the app.
If I’m following correctly, a few responses as follows.
OK. Maybe not every athlete. But many who pay attention to how they respond to training of different types get a pretty good understanding of where they are differentially stronger vs not.
Not random. Do you think Usain Bolt skews fast or slow twitch? It’s possible to make inferences based on observed performance. If you saw me play rugby back in my younger days, it would be pretty straightforward to peg me as skewing fast twitch.
The OP’s point at the outset was about challenges keeping up with training. I was in this exact same boat with TR a few years back because my FTP was set too too high based on what I did in the ramp test. If the OP is in a similar situation to me, it could be that the root cause of workouts being too difficult is that his FTP is set too high. The TR adaptive training is clearly not working “fast enough” for the OP - if it was, he wouldn’t have posted.
To update everyone on this thread, I did the 20 min FTP test on TR this morning. I ate a bowl of muesli and a croissant and prepared 750ml of High Carb drink from Skratch.
Do my dismay, result was 135W (previous FTP was 213W). I felt exhausted throughout the test, with heavy legs. HR was around 155bpm (my max is around 170 bpm and RHR is around 48 bpm).
Was my training too hard for me and I am now exhausted?
You were not fully rested (or coming down with an illness),
but also if you train in the morning, it is imperative that you fuel for the workout the day prior.
@fljones3 I am not sure I understand why you are saying I was not fully rested. I had a day off on Friday an Endurance session both on Tuesday and Thursday. I had rice the night before,
The comments saying you need rest are based off you saying
If you said you felt exhausted, or had heavy legs, with 5 minutes to go, that would be normal. But if you were working at a a fairly steady pace with small increases along the way, you shouldn’t have felt exhausted or heavy legs the entire time.
Something certainly sounds odd. My FTP is at about 245w and I’d expect to be nudging 160bpm by the end of a 20 minute interval at that FTP. HR Max around 175.
At 135w I’d expect to be at about 110bpm, nose-breathing.
Either you’re ridiculously tired (like, a flight of stairs leaves you feeling crushed, tired) or you’re getting sick, or something has changed in your setup.
Which means you need more than just a day off. Take rest seriously, as the alternate is digging a deep hole, jumping in, with no ladder to get back out
