AT: Easy vs Moderate vs Hard vs ... [Pass / Success Survey Responses]

OK, that is interesting. It’s entirely possible TR has been tweaking the guts behind the scenes compared to our prior experiences.

As usual, it’s probably best to email support@trainerroad.com directly in this instance.

You know what! I was wrong and you were right. But, there was some delay!
I left it as “fatigued” after posting the previous picture. When I got back to the calendar I noticed that the PLs indeed had moved!

All is well, I’ll keep it as fatigued and not be bothered with an 11 sweet spot session on Thursday :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

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OK, for the sake of consistency and avoiding confusion, I’d suggest ditching any active discussion based upon a 10 point scale. It doesn’t exist and only serves to raise questions (as seen) in the current climate.

  • TR is sure capable of changing the scale, but it’s not the case now and we should discuss any ratings based on their 1-5 options at this time.

And to briefly touch on why I think TR has a minimal number of options, we have to recognize WHY they have this question in the first place.

  1. They clearly have access to the workout data and the apparent performance we provided.
  2. The purpose of the survey is to give them a subjective response about HOW IT FELT TO US, to have made that known performance.
  3. They leverage that data in a relative simple way. They need to decide if our current status (based on #1 & #2) means they should make any changes to the pending workouts on our calendar.
    • Keep the current progression of workouts (ramp rate).
    • Adjust pending workouts UP to harder Levels, because this performance was easier than expected.
    • Adjust pending workouts DOWN to easier Levels, because this performance was harder than expected.

With that in mind, there is little need to have the fidelity offered by a 10 point scale with double the options (and more waffling that I would predict).

  • As Jonathan has said, this survey is not meant to be difficult or “over-thought”. Take a moment to review how hard it was and felt, pick a number for the survey and move on.

  • The outcome of changes are not set in stone and are not likely to derail our training if we are indecisive between two ratings. Make a call and roll with it after that.

  • If you decide you made a mistake at a later moment, you can adjust the rating within 7 days. That may or may not lead to direct changes on pending workouts, so keep any adjustments in mind and consider using the Alternates function on your own to kick up or down your pending workout different from what landed on your calendar via AT based upon your workout and rating.

  • Again, like Jon, I think many of us are spending too much mental energy on these ratings and making it more complex than it needs to be.

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OK, phew!!! At least that squares with my past experience and current expectations.

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The moment I rate that workout very hard, I’ll get a fail survey and that is not what happened. I crushed it.

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I love this thread as we all try to calibrate our own perception. I try not to overthink my response. Today I did. I completed Monadock-2. The last minute of the last 3 intervals was definitely head down, music loud, talking myself through 15 sec chunks. The last 2-min interval I backpedaled about 10-15 seconds then completed it.

I rated that as Very Hard and think it was at the upper end of that scale. I feel like multiple backpedal breaks would push it to All Out.

How does others treat a quick backpedal vs maybe more than one.

If I missed a discussion on this above or elsewhere then just point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

I would’ve rated it the same way as you, you completed the workout and struggled but didn’t fail. If you didn’t finish the workout then I would’ve marked all out. Vo2max is supposed to be very hard. Hopefully others can chime in on their experience.

Right on. This thread is a beast and ultimately, I am confident that if my rating forced an adaptation that was too much or too little, it would self correct over time. I was just thinking thru one short backpedal break on one interval vs more than one. I think had I missed more than one interval as prescribed, I’d have called it All Out.

I have started to ride outside again. Yesterday I did Red Lake +3. Target watts were 230 and l was around 210-215 for most of them. The Garmin had a range of 220-240.

I put this down as Moderate. I assume that outdoor rides don’t have a fail survey that is decided by the backend like indoors. What is the best thing to do in this situation?

As an aside I started using AI FTP and it has raised me from 204 to 209 and on Monday 213. I have a leaky heart valve (nothing to worry about) but I think this had led to lower results on the ramp test. When I was using the ramp test result a lot of my workouts were moderate, now under AI some are hard, but I can complete them successfully. This leads me to believe AI is making the right call.

The reason I mention this is, I am not sure I can hit that power outside and I can see this issue coming up again. ERG mode is one thing, outside is another.

After you finish the ride and it syncs into TR, you can enter a survey response and say you failed. I usually use the web interface but you can do it in the apps too.

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Everyone is different and I think as long as you follow the general guidelines and are consistent with how you rate workouts then all good. Personally if I need mini breaks and back pedals to get through it…All out. If I manage it without mini breaks/back pedals but feel dead- very hard. If finish, glad it over but never doubted would finish - hard. If felt fairly easy - moderate. Easy is reserved for stuff like lazy mountain and maybe petit type stuff (although that can also be moderate if fatigued)

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I don’t feel that I failed due to effort, I feel a failed because it was harder outside. I think I could have completed it inside. If I fill in the survey as a fail I wonder what the AI will do with that result.

Same PM inside and out?

Definitely adds a complication if someone has different abilities inside and out.

Wattbike Atom v1 inside, Assioma’s left only outside

Love the discussion here, lots of great info.

100% clear on all from Easy - Very Hard. Rock solid definitions from TR, easy to decide accurately.

0% clear on Very Hard vs All Out

Current on website:

"VH: This ride was very difficult to complete. This ride tested you. If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it.

AO: This ride was extremely difficult. It pushed me well beyond my abilities and took a massive amount of energy and focus to complete. You’ll feel like you barely made it to the end of this ride, and that you had to pull out every mental trick in the book to finish."

If I truly wouldn’t have been able to complete even one more interval, wasn’t that AO ? Using all the mental tricks, all my magic backup gas, treating it like a race, quote “If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it”.

Isn’t that AO…like…by definition?

It’s in the definition of AO that you did complete it. So, without bailouts like decreasing difficulty, back peddling, etc.

Or is the definition a bit incorrect, and it is this simple: AO only applies if you failed or used a bailout to complete.

Or no, you still finish, but there’s some status between literally not being able to do one more interval, and actually failing the current interval [which could be 30s, 10s, etc] ?

If yes, what is that status? How do we know / what is measurable about it ?

Also, we’re all talking about, quote, “one more interval”, as circled below in blue, right? Not an entire block?

image

Thank you!!!

  • There were two mentions on the podcast from Jonathan, where he says that use of Bailouts (pause, back pedal, larger Workout Intensity reductions, etc.) are a clear All Out marker. One was last week and not sure on the one prior, but he’s covered that detail twice now.

Per those specific podcast comments, I have asked for some form of that info to be added into the official support article. It’s not been done from what I can tell.

I do find it funny though. Because there must be some trigger point with Bailouts where they trigger a Struggle survey by default vs using All Out which seems to give the same Struggle survey. My question is how fine or where is the line between a default Struggle survey vs TR still giving you the regular survey and an All Out leading to the Struggle as a follow up?

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@mcneese.chad absolutely love your reply & info, bang-on, thank you!

Exactly: It seems w the given def of VH, AO must require use of bailouts, and therefore is a technical DNF. Otherwise, they totally overlap / are the same. Would love to see TR Team jump on and update def of AO.

Frankly, to remove confusion and streamline it deeeliciously, given bailouts, they could remove AO from the survey and have the system auto-detect and apply AO if bailouts were used.

[Could easily add buffer like </=5 or 10 s stoppage of power, no AO, > gives AO.]

I’d humbly make one small edit to your fantastico chart: “Wondered a bit…” → “…may have had moments where you felt 100% sure you weren’t going to finish” or similar / better phrased / more succinct.

If AO = bailouts and technical DNF, VH has to include the very deepest pushes, with all the lying to yourself, broken promises over and over again, etc, that go with true max efforts where you do end up succeeding.

[What? No, I don’t have emotional damage from Bashful+3 and Meade these past couple weeks, don’t be silly, I was fiiiiiiine.]

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I like the suggestions, how about something like as a 1st try:

  • Had serious doubts about completing it, but you did.
  • Had serious doubts about finishing but you did… barely.
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@mcneese.chad I like both, but really love the second one. Love to hear what others think.

Captures the desperation, and also gives some clarity that yes, VHs can feel like you barely got there, by the skin of your teeth, but you did get there.

They will indeed feel like you went “All Out” !! : )

[Little joke at the inherent confusion in the current TR defs!]

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Sweet, I like the 2nd option best as well. I put that in for now:

Thanks :100: for your thoughtful review and suggestion.
It’s that type of interaction I really value around here. :smiley:

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