It’s amusing that I think I’m the only one to mention lactic acid/lactate in this thread (way up top).
Having exceptionally little lactate clearing abilities, stemming from exceptionally little aerobic-ness, was my O/U nemesis. Now, after a couple of years of getting lots of endurance hours under my belt and developing those clearing skills (as well as maybe??? lowering lactate production), O/Us are no where near as painful as when I first started. Challenging, yes, but not killers.
Interesting to read everyones personal take on why/how they find O/Us hard – from carbs to gearing to FTP to cooling to head games…but not burning leg acid!
@Captain_Doughnutman, interesting point. To further continue down that path, would it be reasonable to say that the reason most people have problems with O/Us (due to poor lactate clearing capabilities) is because they follow the trainingplans that have too few (or too short) Z2 endurance rides?
I.e. the mighty popular sweetspot trainingplans, that are meant to be a substitute for basic Z2 endurance training, are not beneficial w.r.t. improving lactate clearing capabilities since the work intensity is too high? Initially people might get an improved FTP via the ramptest, however when having to work for a longer time at threshold, they fail.
(Note: this is of course only one part of the equation/problem)
Pretty much this. I track my sleep quality with SleepCycle, and I typically do hard workouts in the afternoon around 16:00-17:00pm, before dinner.
I NEED a good amount of sleep (7 hours good quality sleep), and I NEED breakfast + lunch with carbs. If I get that, I fly. If I don’t, I fail. It’s that simple for me (+ previous accumulated exhaustion).
I would say one of the reason most new TR users have problems with O/Us is because most new TR users probably have a very under-developed aerobic system and/or very over-developed anaerobic system.
No Sweet Spot or Threshold workout should be agonising or consistently failed. If it is, it’s a definite red flag that there’s a big hole in the training (e.g. not enough aerobic work).
Honestly…at this point I have just accepted that over-unders are beyond the difficulty level I’m willing to endure indoors on a trainer. I can muscle through 1 if I force myself…but the mental cost is too high.
I’ve recently taken to doing 3 short zwift races back to back as a replacement for the over-unders. They very well may be harder…but I dont feel as if I’m just flogging myself to keep at it from beginning to end.
I love sweet spot workouts, and short power stuff as well with trainerroad. But 10 minutes plus intervals of more pain than a threshold workout on a trainer with no competitive aspect isnt something I want to force myself through…
I dont think most people can, or that is necessary…or even sought after unless that is the specific adaptation you’re after…ie being able to ride at high levels of ftp for ling duration, rather than raising ftp…
I’m going to be unpopular here. It should be hard but do-able. If it hurts that much, it is going to affect how you feel going into your subsequent training.
It’s worth playing around with lowering the intensity, because you are not benefitting from the session by allowing the power to fall(because you cannot hold it) . You would be better to find an intensity where you can do those 3 blocks and manage the power (give or take a few watts).
You don’t mention what type of athlete you are, eg. a diesel, or a power sprinter, or somewhere in between.
If it makes you feel better, I really struggle with the vo2 max of more than 45 seconds.
Look at it as a long term improvement and you’ll probably find them more do-able as you develop better endurance at that intensity.
Just suggestions, I 'm not a coach !
Totally agree! 2:1 over-unders definitely aren’t easy, but should be easier than the sustained >FTP intervals like 8-10mins at 102-105%. If you’re not getting at least a little relief on the unders, your FTP is probably a bit too high.
Now that said, the sliding intervals to me (like Carpathian peak) are more difficult to me than the flat durations (e.g. Picket Fence). You get so little relief on the unders with those, especially on the version with 16min intervals. I still like building up with over-unders before going into something like SPB.
Well put. Lately I’ve been using the Kollie Moore Baseline test protocol (see thread) instead of the ramp, and also accepting the results – a more realistic (useful?) FTP value than earlier variously inflated ones. Today I managed that minimum 30 minutes (not 40! yet!) and will use the NP as my FTP. It’s pretty low, but I’m pretty old. Thing is, it’s not a derived number. It’s just a simple fact – rode this hard this long. No coulda woulda shoulda.
AND – relevant to this thread – is that this time around I’ve been able to do the over-unders – at least like Warlow and Palisade – at a lower FTP, without bailing and without all the stressful drama around bailing. They’ve been hard but doable, which is what I’m told they should be. Now that they are actual over-unders, instead of over-overs (as you wits put it), I can experience the unders as some minimal but real recovery, and the overs as unsustainable. Same thing on the KM test itself, paying attention to what it feels like to go as hard as I can sustain, recognizing and adjusting when I’m over that edge. Better than just flailing and puking for this old man.
I didn’t mention 60 minutes. I just crudely said you should be able to ‘hold’ it. A better word might have been ‘sustain’.
Coggan’s definition is: the highest power a rider can maintain in a quasi - steady state without fatiguing.
No mention of 60 mins again - I think this is a parameter people have added after the fact, that seems to have stuck in lore. Coggan is defining MLSS, and perceived wisdom from those who seem to understand it best says you should be able to hold it for something like 30 - 70 mins depending on your capabilities.
Not being able to do this, and not be able to tolerate O/Us would seem to be a symptom of the same thing - FTP value set too high.
And that’s the main reason I recently switched from ramp test to the standard 20min FTP test. Knowing I can ride for at least 20min at effectively 105% of FTP makes O/Us much more manageable both mentally and physically.
This. Yes O/U are tough. Yes, you can feel miserable already in the first set of O/U. Yes you can fail one O/U workout on a bad day. Even more in SSB where they appear in the 4th or 5th week after accumulating some fatigue.
But failing them consistently is a huge flag that your FTP is wrong IMHO. A lot of good advice in the thread, and I already shared my thought in the other thread about overachieving ramp test, but I will put it here also as it took me 1.5 year of TR to understand that and maybe someone can benefit from it:
FTP too high means sweetspot intervals are indeed threshold intervals, tiring you out in early phase of SSB. 10mn of sweetspot should feel quite easy. If you feel like you need to focus quite hard after 6-7mn, feel uncomfortable and cannot breath (at least inhale) through nose (with conscient effort), then you are probably at threshold.
First sub threshold workouts in SSB are indeed done at superthreshold, which is very difficult to sustain for long time. Good indicator is on the 10mn subthreshold intervals. If you feel you desperately needs the interval to stop (leg burn rising after 6-7mn, starting to pantle) in the last 2mn and this right at the first or second interval, it is not normal. Yes you should feel like you are doing hard work. But you should be able to hold threshold more than 15mn without feeling you are dying and need to backpedal at the end. With 5*10mn at threshold with 5mn rest, maybe the last 2 or 3 should start to feel very heavy (no burn, rather the typical stiffness in legs that spent long time at threshold) in the end of the intervals
You then arrive already overfatigued (because you did only threshold and superthreshold work during 4 weeks) to the O/U intervals in the 4th or 5th week of SSB (palisade?) . And here everything collapses. The “under” interval is above your threshold. No chance to clean the burn. You finish the first set almost dying. Maybe the second set with the mental cost associated to it. But no chance to go through the other 3. It is difficult physically and mentally. But you should only struggle to finish the 4th or 5th set out of the 5 (4th is for me most difficult for me, last set has this “last one” mental boost).
In the end of SSB, you overreach, the week recovery before build is not enough and build finishes you after 1 or 2 weeks. You then step back to SSB again as you feel it is too much, but the same cycle happens again and again.
Drop ftp (If you think the offset of zones I described above is what you feel during SSB, then 4% should be enough) and see what is happening. Your training will benefit from finishing all WO consistently, more than barely completing workouts with 5-10 watts higher FTP. Not to mention that feeling physically miserable while failing workouts is the best way to be disgusted by indoor training. Feeling miserable during the toughest WO but finishing them is where the fun is
The difficult part, however, is the extent to which you should “suck it up” (e.g., mental state, rate of perceived exhaustion) and the extent to which it is physiologically too high.
Since I started doing structured workouts, I quickly discovered (after the first two ramp tests and sweet spot base 1 and 2 MV) that I apparently can suffer way more than I thought I could - having trusted TR that I should be able to complete the trainings that were on my schedule given my FTP.
So I think it is sometimes quite difficult to decide whether it is mental of physiological.
