Yep and this is where it gets super messy - because most TR LT/SS intervals are so short, it’s definitely possible to complete with an inflated FTP, if you’re anerobically gifted or just really good at suffering or whatever.
You are raising a good point. My take is that failing a WO should not worry you too much.
But as you said, endurance athlete and even more the one consistently doing intervals during training are mentally tough. Like really really tough… So if you keep bailing (and it is often mental before legs give up), I would take it as a signal that you are overreaching. Means too high training load (because of wrong FTP or too many workouts). If you are doing low volume, odds that it is because of too high FTP are high.
I am new to TR and interval training. 4 weeks in to my first plan and I have my first over under workout coming up on saturday (Warlow). This thread is making me VERY excited to try it.
If what Captain Doughnutman says is true I think my chances of success are moderately high. I’d like to imagine my aerobic base is quite solid as I basically did a whole year of long endurance rides 6-10 hours a week before hopping on TR 
Will update on Saturday after I give it a go.
4 Likes
That’s the attitude. You should be fine. Fuel the workout also, it helps
1 Like
My 0.02$ from going through the “program” a couple of times, is that the O/U’s really test if that FTP is set well! I overachieve on the Ramp test versus when I do the KM test.
When I have gone though with the ramp test FTP, my heart rate would not fall/recover at all during the “unders”, and the workout was very tough.
Going through with an FTP set from the KM protocol, the workout was still hard, but now the heart rate actually recovered some during the “unders” and I could feel the flood. Made a world of difference.
4 Likes
Yeah, the first time you experience this nice fast falling tide feeling after 20-30s in the recovery valley… 
Difficult to explain but when you feel it, you know everything is as it should be and you can actually make it… It will be tough, it will suck, but the “relief” will come in each valley. If the “relief” is not coming in between surges, someting is wrong
3 Likes
Yeah that was such a relief! The first times when my FTP was too high, I was cursing Chad’s commentary text saying something to the effect “you should feel the recovery and the flood”, where I was like “NO there’s no recovery at all, just a rising RPE and HR” 
3 Likes
The latter part of that is, I think, a bit of an oversimplification and painting with too broad of strokes. That’s probably true in some cases, but definitely not all, and probably not most. I think quite a bit of the time that people struggle with O/U workouts, it could be due to timing - not being rested or recovered enough. That was absolutely the case with the O/U workout that I “failed” recently.
Guys actually talked about over-under intervals on the podcast a couple of years ago, last question on episode 75: Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast - Presented by TrainerRoad - Ask a Cycling Coach: 075 - TrainerRoad Podcast on Stitcher
starts at 59:20.
3 Likes
I think that how you ride outdoors is a contributing factor. Do you have experience of efforts like O/U intervals?
If you’re a regular ‘Bash’ rider or a racer, you’ve got experience to draw upon. You can mentally visualise a scenario and put the work you’re doing into context. It also works in reverse. When you’re getting your teeth kicked in and you’re questioning your life choices, you know deep down that you’ve made it through a 12-16 minute O/U set.
2 Likes
I have been doing the TR workouts with the FTP from the ramp test. Looking at my heart rate in a block of O/U’s, I see it slowly increasing towards my level of a sustained hard 20+ min effort by the end of one O/U block. This seems logical given that the average intensity of the block is 100% FTP.
For me these workouts are totally doable, don’t know if it means I need to adjust the intensity? During the O I can feel da burn in my legs, while during the U the burn goes away after 30 s.
2 Likes
I’m an anaerobically driven rider who suffers on threshold and 95/105% over/unders.
I can handle sweet spot and VO2max just fine at my tested FTP. This includes the VO2max over/unders. So I’m perfectly happy sticking to those while I continue to see fitness gains.
BTW: notably absent from SSB HV 1&2 are any workouts above SST.
This is how they should feel.
2 Likes
Okay, I didn’t’ know what I was talking about O/U’s are hard. Just took on Palisade and managed to complete 4 out of the 5 blocks. Previous O/U’s were 1/2 min and 2/2 min. However Palisade is 2 min over / 1 min under. Each block was getting harder and by the 4th block I had to tell myself that I would not choose to quit, just to complete it. However, when during the rest interval I could not keep the pedals spinning it was time to stop 
Just wait till next week in SSBMV with Mcadie +1…same structure intervals but 12 minutes long instead of 9 lol. I’ve never finished it. Completed 2 of the 4 intervals a few days ago and I’m calling it a win lol.
Took a 5 min break after clawing my way through the 2nd interval and loaded up carson-1 to finish the day.
Anyway totally agree with the gist of your post…I’ve completed the first 3 over under workouts in SSBMV fairly consistently; theyre tough but totally doable for me .but they get MUCH tougher the last couple weeks of the plan. Palisade and Mcadie+1 are just brutal. Normally I dont even bother wirh them anymore…but I was feeling kinda strong and frisky this week…
Yikes. Indeed, Mcadie+1 is up next week. Will be a good test to see if it feels any easier with an extra week of training.
I have good hope I am improving fast. Carson I did this week, compared to 2 weeks before, had 5 bpm lower at the end of the 94% interval.
You’re doing great then! At lower threshold, you should definitely be able to clear lactate. After a few seconds, the sensation for me is almost like the lactate is bleeding out of my legs like water. I bet you like to climb.
I’d say this sounds about right. In my case my legs are more-less OK, but I find it really hard to stay in there because my heart rate shoots up too high for it to be sustainable.
Today I did Carpathian Peak +2 and I have no idea who’s idea was it to put it in the second week of base. Also I’m coming off of a 2% FTP bump which made it just a tad too much for me as I needed to go down 5% on the last three over-unders.
I’m legit pissed off at this workout, this early in the plan.
Well that was definitely one of the toughest workouts I’ve done so far but also the most rewarding upon completion. First 2-3 intervals were relatively smooth sailing. Last 2 started to burn especially with the pedalling drills thrown into the valleys and increased fatigue, but I still felt strong enough to finish. I got Palisade coming up next saturday and now I’m really looking forward to it 
2 Likes