Workout Levels V2 update? [Unstructured Rides]

[AldridgePrior]

@huges84

For example, if you’re doing polarized training or training for an all day event and AT thinks you haven’t done any / enough Z2 because your PL says so, it will keep trying to adapt your training to add more low intensity.

Nope. That’s not the way the TR plans work - the plan/weekly structure is defined up-front, with only the intensity of future workouts being modified based on past achievements; the structure of the week won’t be changed.

@huges84

For an example of a training platform that does analyze your outdoor rides and use “AI” (that’s a misused term, including by TR) To adapt your training plan based on your rides: JOIN.

It does interpret your outside rides and is quite flexible in how it does so. Instead of giving very strict and complex workouts, it prescribes a ride like 2 hours at X% with 5 intervals of Y% and Z duration. It will export a workout file and sync to TP or whatever. But here’s the beautiful thing: you don’t need it. Just remember the overall goal. Go on your ride. Make it 1.5 to 3 hours, do the intervals at any time in the workout, not some strict specific time shown in the workout file. JOIN’s algorithm will figure it out and give you a compliance score that is similar to how a human would rate compliance; did you more or less achieve the goals, while ignoring the second by second power target error. With TR, even if I follow the workout power targets, if I so much as stop at a stop light it’s considered non-compliance and might hurt my PLs and possibly giving me easier future workouts.

You appear to be clearly stating here that JOIN better meets your requirements than TR does. Perfect - we’re not dealing with religion here, just choosing products that do a job for us. Does this mean you now use JOIN instead of TR? If not, why not, if it works for you? Isn’t that the answer for you, for now?

I periodically “mock” TR on here for the non-delivery of WLV2, but haven’t been surprised by the difficulties faced, as I see it as a somewhat flawed approach. My opinion, and I welcome being proved wrong, perhaps!

Despite me not using the TR plans much anymore (a/the key feature!), I’m very happy using the product as it is, and recognise that it’s made great strides since I began using it 6 years ago. I look around at other products and for me personally, this is still the one that suits me best. If it wasn’t I’d simply take my custom elsewhere - no big deal.

I’ve not signed up to a marriage or joined a cult, I’m just using a product that ticks some boxes, and I’m not going to get too worked up if it doesn’t happen to operate the way I believe it should do. I do provide feedback to the folks making the product so they’ve an idea of what I’d like to see in order to retain my custom, and I believe they’re well aware of some current shortcomings, but I’m not going to burn a ton of time and emotional energy complaining that the product doesn’t work for me…

[cartsman]

@huges84

You just described races and group rides, apart from the unscheduled part. So don’t race, don’t do fondos or group rides or ride for fun? I think you just eliminated 95% of the customer base.

That’s why I used the word “unscheduled”

Of course do races, fondos and group rides. Just don’t expect them to be much, if any, use in predicting your ability to complete structured workouts. Which is what the PLs are for - their purpose is to help identify the right TR workout for you in any given power zone.

[Power13]

@OreoCookie

PLs are not meant for that, the traffic light feature is.

But we only have one of those features……

@OreoCookie

That’s your vision of AT, but I don’t know whether it is TR’s or how others want it to work

Doesn’t TR market their AT as “the right workout, every time”? Seems like that is indeed their vision of it, then.

I am agnostic on PL’s, overall….i don’t really rely on them or use them in anyway. For me, it is just gamification. That is fine as it can be very motivating for people.

But 2+ years into it, it is an extremely flawed system as it misses a crucial and critical part of everyone’s training - outdoor rides.

[Barry_Bean]

@huges84

Hold on one second. That wasn’t my argument at all. Stop pretending that TR workouts are the only training that are valid.

Wow! That’s some take! If that’s what you took from my post, either you dramatically misunderstood what I was saying, or I did a terrible job of making a point.

@huges84

Races are valid training and TR is a product marketed towards racers.

I agree, and so does TR. Thats why plan builder works around scheduled races.

[quote=“huges84, post:406, topic:80597, full:true”]
How does AT, which relies on PL to know your fitness, manage your plan properly?[/quote]

TR sees all your riding and adjusts your FTP. It uses a combination of FTP and completed workouts to set your PL levels, and adjusts those each time you finish a workout.

Of course, you have some responsibility here, too. Consistently reporting how workouts feel and struggle reports is important, as is using your own good judgement. The program offers recommended alternates, and through this forum, podcasts, and online docs, you are encouraged to use good judgement about when you need to change training volume, take time off, or adjust goals.

@huges84

Where does TR say you can’t race while using their plans? How can AT automatically adjust my training according to those races without me trying to hack together something that isn’t built into the platform? Sure you can out those events on your calendar, but all AT knows is a duration and IF that you estimate; TSS. That says nothing about what power zone distribution during that time was. Track cycling will have completely different effects on your body than an equivalent TSS of a road race.

See the problem?

I think the problem is you are making some incorrect assumptions. Fact of the matter is that no program has omniscience. Even when WLV2 is fully functional, TR won’t know when you had a fight with your spouse, when you had a crappy day at work, or when you had 18 beers the night before and slept poorly for 2 hours. There will always be an undefined variable in the equation.
But workouts provide regular samples of your fitness, and that data can be used to deign an adaptive training plan and set workout levels. Having an extra race, group ride, or other effort unaccounted for doesn’t invalidate the data collected in workouts, or the constantly updated ftp that does use that data.
Consider - if you weigh yourself once a week, you don’t get the same data that you’d get if you weighed yourself once a day, but over the course of time, you’d still have an accurate picture of your fluctuations in weight within a pound or two. You’ll get more detailed data from daily weigh ins, but in the end, you’ll still weigh X pounds.

[OreoCookie]

@Power13

But we only have one of those features……

We actually have neither (as we referred to WL v2). Still, I think it is important to know which feature does what.

@Power13

Doesn’t TR market their AT as “the right workout, every time”? Seems like that is indeed their vision of it, then.

I don’t think that vision contradicts what I think are two ways to approach this.

[Power13]

@OreoCookie

We actually have neither (as we referred to WL v2). Still, I think it is important to know which feature does what.

??? You said “PL’s are not designed for that”……as in the feature we currently have.

[OreoCookie]

@Power13

??? You said “PL’s are not designed for that”……as in the feature we currently have.

Not to belabor the point, but the discussion of is about PL v2, a future, unreleased version that includes scoring of outdoor workouts.

[Tditullio]

@huges84

With TR, even if I follow the workout power targets, if I so much as stop at a stop light it’s considered non-compliance and might hurt my PLs and possibly giving me easier future workouts.

I do almost all my TR workouts outside. I have never had this happen and I stop at red lights and intersections all the time. PL adjustments are based on the survey response for outdoor WOs. There is no analysis of the intervals that I can tell happen.

[brenth]

@Power13

But 2+ years into it, it is an extremely flawed system as it misses a crucial and critical part of everyone’s training - outdoor rides.

It depends in how you use it. Outside riding for me is group rides or me just enjoying outside.

PLs were the best change that I saw introduced. They allowed me to modify my workouts myself now with an understanding on how difficult the workout would be. I can create my own plan or follow TR.

If I follow TR I still can pick another ride and do it. It will adapt etc all based off of what I do and what I change. It tries to keep me on the same plan but I dont have to do it that way. It is up to me.

If I do ride outside it generally will be a long endurance ride. Yes I can associate the ride but it will not change what I will do inside regardless of what TR may prescribe. Most of my training though is in a climate with snow on the ground November to April. It isnt a focus for me to train outside.

Everyone is different. TR currently has something I can work well with. It is more then flexible enough and they have given me tools that just are helpful for me to work with.

[Power13]

@brenth

Outside riding for me is group rides or me just enjoying outside.

My outside rides during the season tend to be very hard and fast group rides…plenty of VO2, SS and threshold efforts. I see my biggest fitness gains of the season when I am doing these rides. My PL’s do not reflect these efforts and are therefore pretty meaningless for me once I get outside.

Which is fine…as noted, I am agnostic on PL’s overall. They don’t work for me and they do work for others. But the fact remains that not factoring in outside rides (not outdoor workouts) is a big flaw in the system.

[pmdusso]

Is there any other system today taking into account unstructured rides and merging them with indoor workouts successfully? Do we have a benchmark to look at?

EDIT: many threads about it:

• Which training apps are adaptive?
• Time to move on from TR? - #11 by ArHu74
• many others…

[Jesse_Vernon1]

Xert, Training Peaks, Join, Athletica.ai, and more. Might actually be easier to list the ones that don’t, like TR. Oh, Zwift would be one that doesn’t

[ChefAcB]

When I was trying out join, I did a 75 mile gravel race that I labeled “all out”. Because that’s what it was. They gave me a tempo workout the next day, and when I asked support, they said it’s basically just an endurance ride.( I took three days off anyways )That was a red flag for me. So, even though those apps take into account outside rides/workouts, I don’t think they’re very trustworthy. IMO.

[jmkizer]

@aydraper

No I’m saying that they are incorrect for endurance and that them being incorrect doesn’t matter.

I’m wondering if TR should even report Endurance level PLs?

[mcneese.chad]

I get reasonable use from them but I also don’t lock myself into that value only. Same for all other PLs for me. I use those but I also check out IF and TSS at times when I look for alternates or manual picks.

Regardless of their goal to make PL a 1-stop shopping data point, I still find it lacking at times and think other values help pick good workouts.

[AlistairSH]

@jmkizer

I’m wondering if TR should even report Endurance level PLs?

Not a direct answer, but the PL1-PL3/4 Endurance workouts are insanely easy. The PL5+ workouts actually feel like they’re a workout. No idea what the means in terms of adaptations, but it seems reasonable to start a plan out with the easier endurance workouts and ramp them up over time, just like the other workout types.

[Pbase]

@AlistairSH

it seems reasonable to start a plan out with the easier endurance workouts and ramp them up over time, just like the other workout types.

That depends on your philosophy on Z2. I personally think you should extend time rather than make them harder, but I know there are lots who disagree.

[mcneese.chad]

I tend to agree, but we often see people hitting a time cap which potentially limits progression (regardless of TR & PL really). In those cases where people can’t or won’t extend time… what do they do?

[Pbase]

Fair point. This is why I don’t think Z2 should have PL’s, but that’s another philosophy debate.

[mcneese.chad]

I think there are really 2 aspects here that are being considered coupled when they are at least partly disconnected:

1. Workout Levels are merely a way to consider the relative difficulty between workouts.
2. “Progression” within the TR realm to include AT and their training plans specifically.

1 can exist and be useful to consider workouts without a direct connection to 2 below.

2 is largely dependent on TR and the way they map out their training plans along with whatever they make AT do behind the scenes with that road map in mind.

I think the key issue for most people in this is the ramp rate and/or goal of TR to continue increasing the rider PL in order to push training demand and hopefully adaptations. I don’t think the WL’s are a problem. It’s the TR plan that seemingly aims to increase them in most/all cases that seems most at issue with Endurance here. But I know this has also been a concern for some riders with particularly high PL’s in other zones too.