Why I failed at TrainerRoad (I think)

Very cool graph. I wonder how the time-scale varies by component for different mixes of volume and intensity.

In that regard I don’t think we really know much more now than when this schematic was first published 50 or so years ago.

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If it helps anyone…

this calculator will convert any best effort power (5m,8m,10m,20m) to CP60
this calculator will convert 20m test to 60min test taking into account demographics
This blog looks at the flaws in FTP concept itself.

happy training, regards Alex

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That’s cool links! Thanks

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Very interesting thread! My VO2 max-power (tested in lab) is 339 watts

Ramp test FTP: 241
20 min test FTP: 242
Lactate threshold: 240 ish
Best 60 min power 237 (continual climb in a race)

So for me all the different test protocols of FTP are very similar in results

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So this thread got me thinking…

started TR in jan 2019, ramptest 262, build up pretty quick to ~300 and even 309 in july, but build was often quite a struggle, and only a few times felt comfertabel with the longer threshold workouts, never expected I was able to hold my ramp FTP for a long period.
After the summer holiday’s the real struggle begon, and mainly SS workouts where fine, but I was not looking forward to any workouts around threshold. Reading this thread I deciced to give training with a 20 min FTP test result a go. So I did my first 20 min test last tuesday, giving me a 293 instead of the last 2 times 301 with the ramptest (last one pretty recent). So There is about a 3% difference between the 2 methods. First workouts (ebbets +1) went fine on the new FTP, but it’s “only” 5x8 ss with some spikes. But I guess the 3% will really make a difference with

My profile is public, so you can view my rides
last ramp Log In to TrainerRoad
20 min: Log In to TrainerRoad
first workout with new ftp: Log In to TrainerRoad
calendar: - TrainerRoad

typically difficult workouts (for me at least): Palisade, Carpathian Peak, Fish. In most cases I was able to finish those, but the price was to high I guess.

Background info:
41 yrs male, did a lot of MTB from 12-19 yrs, started again 3-4 yrs ago, pretty seriously since 2 yrs and structured since jan 2020. Main outside rides are MTB rides 1-2 hours, but I do like the long marathon stuff (training for Belgium marathons). Road bike spends most time on the trainer, but gets outdoor once a while for a 1-2 hour ride. Not enough time in the weekends to do longer outdoor rides often. Maybe the MTB rides shifted my power profile, maybe it’s genetics, I don’t know.

Long story short, I’m more motivated now, knowing that the some of the workouts are not as killing anymore :slight_smile:

(ow, and I can redo my 4 w/kg target again, just fell below with 3.9 with the new 20 min result)

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small addition… this stuff is way too easy now :rofl: Log In to TrainerRoad

cranked it up to 115% for the last half block, full workout at 110 would have been best
(110% of 120 % targets equal 132% vo2max 30 sec intervals)

So that confirms FTP < 75% of MAP for me :slight_smile:

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This is me, down to the point just diffrent numbers.

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did some math… it’s “just” 73% for me… That’s not a big difference from the used 75% and well within the “known” range of 72-77%

Not to pet myself on the back, but is this the price of trying to really max out on the tests and workouts? I would assume more people would have issues if they really go to the limit, as a few percent right ON the limit makes a big difference, a few percent below the limit a lot less…

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Just read your post now, and it was spot on what was happening to me.

Pushed through it, got better ramp test results, ended up being burned out and constantly getting sick.

Eventually got a coach and things cleared up very fast :relaxed:

It’s a shame TR doesn’t address this better, since their whole product depends on it.

In a nutshell, does this mean that Sufferfests 4DP test is better for most athletes?

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Not its not because no-one will do it :slight_smile: just sit on your bike and ride at the power you think you can sustain for 40-60 minutes and all problems will go away. But then - not many people do that because they think it’s too hard.

There is a reason SYSTM introduced full monthy test. 4dp is an extremely hardcore test - every testing protocol to find different power zones suggest to split the test into multiple days (at least 2) to find your max values. PdC from WKO works extremely well and well maintained model is usually spot on. But it requires max efforts as any test. And if something requires max effort (even 20 min test, that in my opinion is the hardest ftp rest you can do) its problematic when scaled to large number of people, as they simply do not want to do this.

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:rofl: My problem there is so much legacy coach trust issues that I’m next to uncoachable. But I’m usually able to bumble my way through things on my own.

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I have found a lot of success with 40-50 minute tests. They don’t seem to fatigue me significantly more than a 20 minute test and are much much simpler to pace. If you misjudge your effort in a 20 minute test there’s not much time to adjust and get a true number, but with longer efforts you can pace conservatively for the first 5 or 10 minutes and adjust and still impact the average significantly

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That’s also my experience, that’s strange to me that people still prefer 20min test.

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A good coach is a huge benefit. I originally wanted a coach just for my first Ironman. And liked it so much I’ve stuck with a coach since. I big benefit is my coach making sure I’m getting enough rest and recovery. I just do the workouts and make sure to let her know how I felt after each workout. Although looking at the data like HR gives her a clue. She tweaks the workouts as needed. Whether it’s making them harder or easier.

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Yeah, same for me! Rest and recovery has been the key factors, also getting back on track after sickness and such.

I also really really like that my coach focuses on the fun aspect of riding. Lots of time he tries to incorporate group rides and such into the program.

Also, during the hard workouts I have never gone as hard before as I have with a coach, you dont want to fail when you have someone you’re paying to have you suffer :wink:

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Before having a coach, not knowing any better, I would go too hard at times and dig myself a hole I couldn’t recover from. My coach handles that and when I have multiple races closer to each other she lays out a plan making sure I’m prepared and rested for each race. If I was doing that on my own I don’t think I’d manage that well.

But at some point I will go back to being self coached and I’ll have a better understanding on laying out a plan

Unfortunately, I have come to the same conclusion that TrainerRoad doesn’t work (as well) for me too.

When I started sweet spot base 1, I would make small gains like being able to hold sweetspot for longer ect.

However, I never had an increase in FTP. I did Sweetspot base 2 and the same happened. I was doing higher % of FTP workouts without failing. However, again I tested at the same ftp.

I was not making the big gains everyone else was. I got discouraged and eventually went back to polarized. With polarized, I finally made gains in my ftp but it took 12-14 hours a week!

So sadly, I do not have the time to ride that much every week. I’m still subscribed because I like the app and platform in general.

“Uncoachable” is a coach-speak for “I don’t know how to coach you”. Find a coach you click with, somebody you trust, and you’ll be fine.

Maybe. But there is an aspect to being “coachable”: you have to be willing to listen to someone else, trust in what they are prescribing, and actually try and execute what is prescribed.

If you aren’t willing to do this, then you are uncoachable.

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