If you have time this series of 3 videos is very informative:
IIRC his recommendation is to get to 90% MHR as soon as possible, and hold between 90 and 94% - so for you that’d be 175-183. I’d definitely recommend a ‘hard start’ style to get this done effecitvely, for an example see Rattlesnake:
Well, I wouldn’t worry too much until you can remove the word “maybe” from that sentence. Generally I take my cycling maxHR as the highest achieved on a ramp test, plus 3 for good luck.
And once you have a reliable number, you can aim for 90%maxHR as @alexgold123 says - with the caveat that all sorts of things might push your heart rate up, or conversely suppress it.
My general guide is:
90-91% - this is hard work but you’re getting the adaptations
92-93% - this is really pushing you but don’t spend too long here
94% and above - this had better be your last interval because you’re not easily coming back from here.
Yes and no. You need lab equipment to know if you’re actually in VO2 land; as C-Chad mentioned, VO2max is tricky. However, as stated above, ~90+% HRmax seems to be a valid indication of hitting VO2max (emphasis on the ‘max’). That said, remember that VO2max is a physiological process, not a power or HR target. All zones will increase your VO2max capabilities (to varying degree).
As @alexgold123 provided, Rattlesnake is the only VO2max workout you should be doing. Just kidding…do them all!
Hmm, someone, might have been you, said that before I did my last Ramp Test. I got to 165bpm doing that which I know is nowhere near my maxHR as I can hit 170bpm regularly. In one of the subsequent VO2max workouts I got to 180bpm.
My maxHR was on a 3min-per-step MAP ramp test which tends to illicit a higher result.
Getting 15bpm lower than your experienced maximum in the ramp test is mind-blowing. My experience with friends using TR is that they’ll achieve 90-96% of ramp test max during a vo2 workout. Never seen anyone experience 109%!
I think it’s because my limiter on the ramp test is my breathing not my HR or my legs. Well, one of them’s got to give first! I’ve only done one Ramp Test with a HRM so it may have been a one-off.
I know on outdoor rides on some of the hills we have around here I can sit at 172bpm for a couple of minutes so I was expecting my MHR to be around 175bpm on the Ramp test.
I think what’s puzzling me is that if this is the limiter in a ramp test, you’d think it’d also be the limiter for vo2 intervals - as you’re working at similar power outputs. If I had more data, and if I was in any way a qualified coach or scientist, it’d be interesting to investigate!
I edited my reply whilst you were replying . There’s some workouts to have a look at.
I think it’s because of the recovery valleys - they have a more beneficial effect on my breathing compared to my HR. Look at the last set in Bashful+1 Log In to TrainerRoad, My HR is nowhere near my max, it’s the short recoveries in that workout that don’t let me get my breath back, I was playing the part of John Hurt in the chest buster scene Alien, which is why I bailed on two of the last set. The next week I did Bashful+2, I really wasn’t looking forward to it but completed it OK - Log In to TrainerRoad
Yeah, totally hit this 3 minutes into my first interval of a 5x5 workout today! Somehow struggled through, but I think I’ll be feeling it tomorrow and will probably dial my Z1 workout down.
so, absent being at altitude or a medical problem, your lungs should be supplying you plenty of air. that means that the reason you are breathing so hard is that your body is struggling to get rid of co2. It’s not the inhalation, it’s the exhalation. In other words, your weak point is ability to use lactate as a fuel / buffer / otherwise "handle’ lactic acid.
Not at altitude (currently sat at 200m a.s.l.) and don’t have any medical condition that I’m aware of, but equally I’ve never felt the need to pester my doctor with “can you test me for …”
So breathing “failure” as the symptom with lactate handling as the cause. Makes sense. Next question is “is it trainable/improvable?” and then “If so, how?”. From earlier workouts, particularly the over-under ones, I remember Chad’s text talking about “gently flooding the system during the overs and then clearing during the unders” (probably paraphrased) and thinking at the time that I wasn’t really being “flooded”. Likewise during the ramp test my legs weren’t “flooded”, they were starting to become so but still had something to give.
I’m fairly certain I was well hydrated prior to the ramp test under discussion so for the moment let’s discount that - I try and do the same routine for the 24hrs prior to all tests.
A search on the forum brought up this thread - Physiological Zones Question - #5 by bbarrera which brings up the idea of a natural high VO2max but a significantly lower LT2. The thread linked to a couple of Joe Friel’s blogs where he discusses lactate threshold and states that to improve it one should train around FTP, this supports the over-under comment above. Interestingly the thread recommends using a ramp test to ascertain Wattage at VO2max rather than FTP! A web search for equating VO2max with LT2 mostly brings up research papers but I also came across this article Lactate Threshold: Tests, The Science and How to Improve it?
Generally my background is long distance endurance. Since reactivating TR last October I’ve followed SSBLV1 & LV2 and am now on Sustained Power Build. It’s quite possible I’ve accidentally played to my strengths rather than work on my weaknesses doing this. If over-unders are (one of) the key to improving LT2 then maybe I should look at a plan emphasising those.
From the linked thread:
@Captain_Doughnutman -
As for my OP situation, now into SusPowBuild, I’m doing more straight up Threshold work, which doesn’t seem to be a problem; it’s the over-under workouts which are still the biggest pain. This is leading me to believe that ‘lactate clearing’ is my weakness. Unfortunate, as I think Nate said that trait is one of the main predictors of high performance
@mcneese.chad - if this thread is straying then happy to start a new one on the subject - maybe VO2max and LT2 would be a good title.
@Nate_Pearson I think you jokingly mentioned that you should do a business podcast in this episode?? I know it was a joke, but if you ever do, I’d definitely listen! I’ve found the little tidbits you drop now and again on this podcast to be super interesting and it sounds like you have a great approach to managing your staff and business.
Do you base your ideas from a particular approach, or have you developed your own style from experience?
I think it is fine and in line with the VO2 max deep dive in the cast.
Feel free to start a dedicated thread in that direction if you’d like to. I’m fine either way and will be happy to move individual posts as people see fit.
Even if your mitochondria are tuned up and your aerobic base is large, you may be able to process the lactate, but you still have to offload the H+ ion. This is what leads to the tachypnea.
That’s a helpful clarification. I am not generally smart on this kinda thing by any stretch, btw. But this is just an explanation i heard from a knowledgeable exercise physiologist as to why you might see two runners running at hte same pace, one a novice and one an expert marathoner, the marathoner calmly nosebreathing and the novice catfishing like a stuck water buffalo: the reason is not actually about getting air in–they both are getting plenty of air in–but rather that the expert has a remarkable ability to maintain a homeostasis despite doing the same level of external work.
Thanks for putting this together! Just listened to it on my solo spin around town and @ambermalika 's stoke for exercise produced myokines was infectious! So rad. And also how appropriate for the current pandemic. I’ve been telling people about myokines since listening