I think the 1 hr, 8,3 wkout would be much harder than 2 hr, 8.5 level one.
What do you guys think?
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Yeah you never really recover from the initial sprint for the rest of interval but 2h sweet spot is difficult too
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Ah … but which one would you recover from faster?
Having asked that - I have no idea if that’s factored into workout difficulty.
Well, I’ve done Eclipse+3 a few times, its ok…wouldn’t fancy the other one! That said - you’re in the shower an hour early so that may have something to do with it 
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I personally would agree with that assessment @Westonite given the fact that you start with those 60s ints plus there is minimal recovery between the work.
That said the 1st WO probably has a higher level due to the fact it’s twice as long in duration and the time spent in zone is almost twice as long.
The hard start sweetspot workouts are a nightmare for me, would much rather do 60-90 minutes at sweetspot with no breaks. I think the problem with the hard start workouts is that the opening 30 seconds to minute are set based on your ftp/sweetspot pl and not based on any anaerobic measure so if you’re a crit racer who does plenty of anaerobic capacity the opening part doesn’t cook you that much. For people like me where the first minute is close to a PR these workouts are basically impossible.
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Agreed. But doesn’t the intensity factor indicate that?
ok, so, I am not the outlier who would thinks the 2hour, higher progression level is eassier.
thanks
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what’s your goal in these workouts?
To develop a profound hatred for all humankind? 
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Setting aside the hard starts for a moment - if your ftp setting is too high, those 1 hour sweet spot workouts with minimal break time are killers and a lot harder than longer workouts with more time in zone and longer rests. In my opinion.
For me, the longer TR workouts of equivalent progression level are a bit easier than the shorter ones. A 2hr trainer workout is nbd for me, but it’s probably almost undoable for some. Generally, I think their workout level algorithm is very good, but I think that the time factor is just something that can’t fit everyone. Maybe in the future we’ll see custom workout levels that are individual to the rider with regard to duration, but what they have is great for now.
The hard starts of say truchas +3/+4 or venado +4 (today’s recommended train now workout for me) are absurdly out of step with other sweetspot workouts. Maybe workout levels v2 will fix this, but these definitely are not classified correctly.
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that too! I just struggle to understand why people ride below threshold for so long, when it just makes us good at riding sort of hard. And rarely do races have this type of steady forever power. Not knocking his approach or choices, but really curious why. If for FTP development, we’ve seen that over unders are far superior. Doing those already? vo2max then; proven to be gold!
Supra threshold, well documented by Seiler (who I dont really care for so not pumping his bag) and Inigo San Milan recently.
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I do. With 3 month base, during final month loading weeks consist 1xZ4 + 1xSS90 + 4xZ2 to increase TTE. Would O/U work better instead of SS90? Sure, possibly. Just during base it is still early for me personally. Beside, SS90 1xN is “happy hard” progression for me, even if it is not specific to any of my goal events.
EDIT: actually, oscillating 2h between 10min 90% / 1min 101% sounds good too 
Maybe because a large number are actually riding at threshold? They just think they are below it. Not a fact, just a theory.
For me, there’s nothing sweet about SS. I find them just as taxing as threshold. Holding 94% of FTP for 24 min straight starting with a Z6 sprint x 2 would absolutely destroy me.
I have found VO2 max workouts have an expiration date of about 6-12 weeks (depending on training volume and history) before there is a plateau or more often a decline due to fatigue and stress. I have also found that focusing on threshold / sweet spot / tempo work in the phase after base helps not only build up strength endurance, lactate tolerance and over-all fitness but generally is less stress on the body. This works for those who may race a series or need to peak at the championship race at the end of the season. (Doing so by inserting VO2 emphasis the next training phase. This doesn’t work for everyone but in 20 years of coaching works for most. Just my opinion but training in this zone gets you in great shape without threading the fine line of peak fitness and injury.
I appreciate these thoughts!
I agree that it totally depends on Training volume and history, and also how many sessions are being prescribed, but blocks of vo2 that expire seems a bit outdated, right? even just 10 years ago we all did blocks (ok maybe not all but was highly talked about the method) of vo2, then circled off, worked threshold, came back to it before racing, etc etc. Not knocking this, this is what I used to do and used to coach athletes, but now we know not to over-prescribe it and I’ve found that doing it more sporadically seems much more effective, so that there is no expiration. Have you tried just 1 a week or every 10 days? I’d be curious of your experience.
lactate tolerance is good, but how much do we need? not a ton, esp as you point out, during base! we have no events that require us to tolerate lactate. athletes build up that capacity quite quickly in my experience.
I think we could spend time by improving lactate threshold and what you called overall fitness (but IMO that’s really endurance and strength work)
thanks for your reply.
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Wouldn’t the SS with a very hard start emulate
- start of XC Marathon race? ( The few mtb races I did started with an insane burst even though it was all wide forest roads and no singletracks for 5+ km)
- breakaway in a roadie race : establish separation then stick to your SS for next 2 hours until peloton decides to reel you in.
- Also it fills legs with the burn right away so more of the following SS workout practice pedaling with it.
