Shifting while using ERG Mode for the Ramp Test

he also talks about raising cadence, I think the only way it worka is to do it quickly, the trainers aren’t that slow to respond, at least from my experience. I’ll grant you if he isny spinning up very quickly then yeah, he cheating, but I dont even this it would work like that the flywheel would just keep slowing down and it would keep jamming on resistance.

Imagine this: target power 300w I’m doing 90rpm. Getting cooked, cadence starts to drop “well if I shift real quick I’ll buy myself a few more seconds while the trainer is catching up to ramp up resistance”.

That’s not how the test should be performed. It’s totally different to what you’re saying which I’ve done, if I have to reposition during an interval and my cadence drops I’ll sometimes shift to an easier gear momentarily to get back on target. That’s totally fine

yeah, but I dont think the other scenario even works, if you use it as a rest its gonna drop your average power and when the resistance hits again, it’s going to hit like a ton of bricks. I feel like he meant, reading between the lines, it gives just enough of a respite to spin the legs back up, oh well, sounds like we generally agree in principal.

As I said before, the saving energy part happens BEFORE shifting. Cadence drops and flywheel speed drops. Then you shift to get the higher cadence back with the present flywheel speed. And slowing down means using the energy stored in the rotating flywheel.

I can assure you that the slowing down, in my case, is not a product of easing off, but tiring out. I’m not talking about a crazy sprint or anything.
An example: 90 RPM for the many first minutes. Then - for various reasons - I might fall to 87, which is fine for some minutes, but really is below my optimal cadence. If i was to accelerate up 90 again very late in the test, it would ruin the rest of the test, so a quick shift up the cassette brings me back to 90.
So basically it is not about getting a break but getting speed back into legs. And as I mentioned earlier, I’d prefer if the whole thing happened in a split second.
I would actually argue that trying to accelerate without changing gears would be the counter productive thing to do.

I’m not after rest, but after getting some speed back into the legs.

Depends on how fast the cadence is dropping, my trainer responds very well to slow changes, but if it’s a relatively quick drop in cadence, then yes.

Yes, this is how I perceive the whole thing. It is not to get a rest. My KICKR doesn’t drop power very much, and if anything I get punished a bit by the move by the trainer raising resistance a bit after the tiny drop. But at the more optimal cadence, I can deal with that.
In its essence, my goal is to stay at my optimal cadence. Not to cheat or anything.

There’s really only two obvious reasons cadence would fall during the ramp test.

  1. Lack of focus or outside distraction
  2. Inability to sustain cadence at your power

My ramp tests usually start around 90rpm and slowly creep up to 100rpm by the end and the cadence graph is butter smooth. OP states for him “this is not a product of easing off but tiring out” so I’m going with option 2, which leads me back to not understanding why someone would purposely do the test wrong to extend their time.

OP, nobody is trying to throw digs at you for getting tired during a ramp test, we all do, and lots of us dread them. It’s more about trying to help you not set up for failure or having skewed results which is only going to hurt you later on. Imagine you do another test in 5 weeks and get a lower result and now you have to wonder “is it my strength? Is it because I shifted last time but not this time?”

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Any ‘trick’ used on a ramp test is only cheating yourself. If you end up with a higher than accurate FTP, you’re the one that’s going to suffer in the end. Makes more sense to me to follow protocol, and adjust workout intensity if required - if you find yourself going that alot, I’d consider adjusting FTP upwards or downwards until the next ramp test.

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I’ve found that I have to do this - I use a Tacx Vortex and as the power increases on the ramp test if the wheel speed is too slow (easier gear) the wheel starts slipping. If I start in a harder gear then I’m way above target power unless I drop my cadence to 50-60. I make sure I shift about 5 seconds before the next ramp starts to stop the slight easing off of power as the wheel starts to speed up. It’s a pain but the only way I’ve been able to make it work. I train in a similar way so think doing it in the ramp test doesn’t have an impact to target power levels - VO2 has to be in a harder gear or I have the same problem with the wheel slipping.

Of course, I might have misunderstood the fundamental thing about testing. I’ve always thought that ftp test was about to go the absolute limit. Regardless of how you got there. Yes I know that an all out sprint is out of the question, but that’s not what I’ve been after with my little trick.
Actually, if raising the cadence is cheating, why isn’t lowering cadence considered cheating? :face_with_monocle:
You raise to keep on going a little longer.
You lower to keep on going a little longer.
Shouldn’t you stop the test then, when you fall 2 rpms off where you can hold the power?
And actually, to reiterate, I’m not really not after raising cad. but more after brining it back to normal

Shifting to overcome trainer limitations from Wattage Ceilings and Wattage Floors is very real, and has not been mentioned yet. In those cases, it’s appropriate and even necessary. It affects many of the lower to mid priced options, but is not an issue with most higher priced trainers.

But as mentioned, the general guide is “to be consistent” so doing those shifts should be repeated each time at appropriate power level requirements.

That is very different from what this discussion is mostly covering (shifting to ease the effort a moment when the test gets hard).

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I really HAVE to do a ramp test tonight and send the link to Chad for him to analyze :grin:
The only problem being that I haven’t bee riding for 4 months, so I’ll suck big time :sweat_smile:

I know this discussion had happened before, in the course of other discussions.

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For reference, here are my last 5 ramp tests, if anyone wants to see my efforts.

Setup and Use:

  • ERG mode

  • Wahoo Kickr17 (ERG mode power smoothing turned OFF, for “real” power display)

  • Cadence from an old school magnet reed switch counter

  • 34t x 17t each time (no shifting)

  • Most have notes related to my “failure” mode that I felt (like legs vs lungs)

  • You can see a general flat cadence and then points where it starts to decay. Often around 16 mins plus and sometimes I can rally and get it back while others is the beginning of the end and it’s clear to see.

  • Attentive people will see a big cadence drop at the very early steps. This is me shifting from the 34t to 50t big ring, so I can stand one time at the beginning of the steps, for a booty rest. I sit down and shift down after about 30 seconds standing and remain seated and in the same gear for the remainder of the test up to failure.

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I think a lot of arguments that come up again and again on the forum about the TR ramp test could be avoided if more people really listened to that part of episode 158. In theory, anyway. This is the internet, after all.

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It’s not about what kind of “cheating” is OK vs. what is not.

It’s about getting a reliable result that will allow you to set your training intensities.

If “cheating” gets a result that informs the right training intensities for you, then that’s fine.

I would try and just keep your cadence up, but if it does drop for whatever reason and you need to shift once to being it back up, I wouldn’t worry at all about it. Just make sure you get back up to power immediately, the moment you shift the fly wheel is going to be going faster than your cassett is spinning, which means you have virtually no load on the pedals, which means you should be able to accelerate the pedals nearly instantly. If you do that, I dont see how anyone could call the result invalid. If you take your chain off, how long does it take you to spin up to 90 rpm? I would venture to say less than one pedal stroke. Spin it up that fast and your test results should be accurate.

Damnnnn…what a thread! hey on topic but off topic on gearing. Do you guys try to use the same gearing combo everytime you test. and does it really matter (not shifting during tests-protocol)
i wonder if it matters, seems like it should not. The other day had a pretty good test then realized i was 3-4 cogs up on the cassette and i’m usually in my 12t for testing.