Quality over Quantity vs. 80/20 (or Chad vs. Matt ;))

Why? Heart rate is still a very useful metric. Sure, it can be affected by a multitude of things, however, it’s still very useful. Say you wanted to do an aerobic threshold ride. Over the duration of the ride your power could remaining constant, but your heart rate will likely increase. The goal would be to keep your heart rate at that aerobic threshold irrespective of power. If you strictly held a power target you might actually spend a good portion of your ride in the wrong zone.

Trevor Connor talks about this a lot

He may have never said “do a 4 hour ride”. However, if you have 7 hours in a week to ride, you might do a 4 hour weekend ride with 3 1hr workouts during the week.

Yes, but I believe he’s speculating and hasn’t any data to support this. Still a very valid assumption from him, but I do wonder if there’s an ideal number of hours or distribution that is required for a polarized approach to truly be beneficial. On the other hand, for the typical time crunched athlete, Frank Overton feels like you get more bang for buck with the sweet spot approach (also fatigue dependent: SS > Tempo > Z2 > Rest).

Yes! That is awesome. Curious, will you adopt the same approach this season?

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Agree. I think this is the key (knowing your body’s physiology) to determining the best training regimen to build the kind of fitness you need.

For example, if you are a slow twitch dominant athlete, naturally low VLaMax, and want to do long races/rides, I think a polarized approach would work very well - as you don’t need to do, for example, long low cadence tempo/sweet spot intervals to reduce VLaMax.

If you are fast twitch dominant and want to do long races/rides, I think you have to do some tempo/sweet spot to reduce VLaMax.

The INSCYD approach is the most interesting kind of profiling like this that I have seen. Apparently Seiler is working on a power based testing methodology to determine LT1. That would be another interesting addition (can’t recall if INSCYD provides and estimate of LT1).

Yes, I’m starting now plus lifting weights. I was thinking of adding more intensity and doing an Overton FasCat style SST base. I actually did one week of it and I was pretty tired. It might be too much to start with but it might have been the weight lifting. Last year I did base and then started doing tempo and SST intervals after the base phase.

He has said that the lactate clearance curve on amateurs improves greatly after as little as 6 weeks of polarized training. What I noticed last year was that my heart rate was going lower and lower for the same speeds. When I started it was hard to be under 120bpm. I had to go like 12-13mph to keep my heart rate that low. Now (9 months later) I’m doing like 17-18 at 120bpm.

Honestly, what makes you think that? Unless you were already doing 3.5 hour rides and they stopped working. The key to volume so many forget is you have to do the right amount for you. The goal is to keep slowly nudging it upwards, not jump all in at 15 hours/week. Just increase volume over a macro cycle, it doesnt even need to be every week.

According to olbrecht high volume work will lower vlamax, at least temporarily. I think also from the weber interview, the real key to lower vlamax is to not do things that stimulates or increases it. This is almost the textbook lydiard approach and what was suggested to me as my approach to next season. Only do those really hard intervals as part of the final race build so the build almost looks like it is in the reverse order.

Doing longer intervals on short rest means you are doing them at lower lactate levels in order to complete the whole set. Seiler mentioned that extending duration and not power were the main goals of their intensity sessions.

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Yep - I think anything that works out fast twitch fibers to exhaustion will help lower Vlamax. I think the reason tempo/SS intervals are recommended is they engage fast twitch fibers right from the outset, so probably more time-efficient for reducing VLaMax vs the longer lower stuff.

Yep. Especially if you’re already low VLaMax. If you’re naturally high VLaMax, probably need to take more active steps to lower it, vs just relying on not doing things that increase it.

Here’s the screen grab from the thread on VLaMax / That Triathalon Show.

Interesting that LSD and Threshold intervals have a greater effect on VO2max than actual VO2max intervals! Also interesting that LSD has an increase and decrease effect on VLamax.

If a big FTP is comprised of low VLamax and high VO2max, does this mean the perfect training combo = Threshold intervals + hi-torque SST + lo-CHO LSD?? :man_shrugging:

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Pyramidal!

I think it varies by athlete type. If you skew slow twitch, and naturally low VLaMax, I’d say that tempo/SS are not as important, maybe not even needed?

This could explain why Seiler is so passionate about polarized. The best endurance athletes do naturally skew slow twitch, hence in the population of athletes he studies, he sees polarized.

Seiler has said that cyclists do tend to follow more pyramidal. This makes sense, as for many cycling events - one day races or individual stages - a profile like Julian Alaphillipe is very successful - where you need some fast twitch muscle snap. And you can bet that the likes of Alaphillipe are doing something like pyramidal.

Good point. And yet another reason why Pro–>Joe polarized training isn’t a great translation.

There just might be something to this new fangled TR training! :stuck_out_tongue:

Makes me think that complete beginners should do a few seasons of SST in order to maximize slow twitch growth/conversion and then flip to a more Pol type training (if they don’t want to be sprinters).

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I think you’ve got it backwards. That chart makes the case for the average Joe. What increases VO2max? LSD and threshold intervals - exactly what Seiler proposes.

I would say most newbies should focus on low intensity and consistency and let that take them to a point where they need to decide, more volume or more intensity to get where i want to be.

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This has been an interesting thread. I usually get burned out and sick around the end of build phase (when I’ve followed it closely), and have been doing a loose 80/20 approach using low volume plans and outside rides. I find I have a lot more enthusiasm about training and I feel stronger. My ftp is a bit higher than usual after doing this for about 3 months, so it’s promising. Volume has always been a weakness for me so knowing I have to force myself to do the long rides has been great. In questions about why TR doesn’t do a polarized plan, my conjecturing is I wonder if this is one of those plans that if not followed well, it doesn’t yield any positive results. With all their data and history, I’ve got to assume there is a belief that their specific clientele will not do well with that type of plan, so it’s better to not offer it, have people who want it do their own, and not have a bunch of people claiming TR doesn’t work because they can’t follow plans the way they need to. I would love to get a look behind the TR curtain.

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My guess is that an online platform cannot sell polarized because there would only be two workout variations: Z2* and some form of 4x4, 4x8, or 4x16min intervals. People would question why they are paying $20/month for what they can easily program on their smart trainer or do outside. They would even question the value of a power meter doing the Seiler polarized plan because it’s not needed for those workouts.

:smile:

Edit - Yes Z2 in a 5/6 zone model. Z1 in a 3 zone model.

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Z1 in a 3 zone model :wink:

The latest Fast Talk podcast (#94) is a Q&A. The last question is on periodized and polarized training @ 27min.

https://www.fastlabs.com/fast-talk/

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That is tough to listen to with the massive range in audio volume levels. They still have work to do on the production side of the show.

Volume levels aside I find them impossible to listen to in the first place.

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I thought this was an interesting slide show on Long Slow Distance vs. HIIT

I was always more of a sprinter so it kind of explains why I’ve been responding well to a polarized approach. I can do SST or Threshold workouts but they leave me fatigued as they accumulate.

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thx for sharing, nice to see the slow twitch vs fast twitch response to training info in an organized presentation.

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