Wanted to share my experience after initially having what I thought was too high of an AIFTP detection.
The quick background is my initial AIFTP detection was 258W on January 25th. This set off some alarm bells, knowing that I really start to struggle for lengths of time greater than 20 minutes at about 240/245W.
I struggled for the first week with sweet spot workouts that had me in the high 220W low 230W range, with my heart rate breaking into threshold territory. My first O/U was basically an O/O with heart reach reaching VO2 max territory. I was pretty discouraged initially, but after some discussions on the forum, I decided to manually turn down my FTP to 245W, and continue using the platform for my training. I noted the prediction for my next detection sitting at 252W on February 2nd.
I proceeded to complete 5 workouts at the manual level (four sweet spots and one threshold). By the end of the fourth sweet spot workout on February 12th, I was feeling oddly confident and decided to re-accept my initial AIFTP detection. Also worth noting that I decided to rebuild my training plan from Gran Fondo to a 5 month FTP build after my onboarding call with the TR team, with the start date back-dated to try to keep some credit for the first few weeks of base training. This resulted in my Tuesday and Thursday workouts increasing in duration from 1-hour to 1.5-hours, and my Saturday threshold day turning into 1:45 (also up from an hour).
My initial threshold workout after this change was Brush, which I rated very hard, but knowing that it was only at the beginning edge of very hard. I proceeded to crush my next two sweet spot workouts, and I just had wheel -1, which I only rated hard. Tomorrow, my AIFTP is set to move up to 260W, and I have no doubts about being able to complete my workouts there whatsoever.
Some thoughts:
I do feel the initial AIFTP detection was too high, but I don’t feel like the detection was off by all that much. In my case, however, I feel like the increased time in zone with the lowered FTP really helped me to settle into the more strenuous training. I was looking over the upcoming workouts and I was very impressed by how the program was setting up my workouts to have a reasonable progression in power.
I feel like workout durations >1 hour leave a lot more breathing room in the workout to get some recovery in, and have more quality time in zone, at least with the level of workouts one has after the FTP detection. If you have too high of an FTP detection, and you’re only doing 1-hour workouts, I think the combination of higher power and less rest can make the workouts tougher than those of longer duration (at least for me, personally).
I’m absolutely blown away that the software managed to make me so much more fit in only a few weeks of training, and have me actually exceed the initial AIFTP detection (only a couple of watts, I know), and be able to do so confidently. I went from struggling around 240W to feeling like I can actually recover at 245W for an O/U workout. And my riding frequency and consistency really did not change from before and after joining TR.
I don’t actually know if I would have ended up here if I DIDN’T manually lower my FTP for that relatively brief period of time, but I do think it was the right decision to do so, if only to skip the software taking a little longer to calibrate to my present level. Perhaps, for AIFTP detections that are greater than the 20-minute or 30-minute power records of the user, the software should consider longer time-in-zone at slightly less intensity before ramping up the power. It seems to have worked very well in my case.
Either that, or the AI knows me better than I know myself, and I would have ended up here if I was more patient. I’ll never know!
I did change my plan, but to be honest, the structure of the workouts have been similar between Gran Fondo and FTP build for the base phase, so not sure how much that impacted other than the longer workouts.
Overall, I’m really happy with how the training has been, despite that first week experience, and I can’t wait to see where I’m at at the end of this block of training. So if you’re on the forums and you’re frustrated, I encourage you to discuss constructively with the helpful folks here, experiment with your plans and workout durations, and see where you end up in a month or so.
I had a similar bumb with the switch. Went from 298 to 316 but unlike you I decided to give it a try even thought the plan had over and unders with the overs longer and higher (3min unders and 2 min overs x 2 for 10mins). These types of over and unders had been my nemisis in the past let alone after a reasonably big bump. The first effort was very hard but that was mostly due to temps in the pain cave as the next two in the block were right in line with the suggested RPE. And the last one had me doing my second best 10 minute effort and I was able to do it for the three sets. I might eat my words, after the first block I have gotten a new bump from 316 to 322, highest ever TR FTP (and similar to what intervals is suggesting now, traditionally TR was always about 10 to 15 less than intervals estimate) and it’s another build block so shall see how it goes!
One thing I learned in the past is that to really nail the TR high intensity efforts I really needed to treat them with respect, proper fuellling, not over doing rides leading into them, sleep etc and they would go better.
So far I am one cycle in on the training with the new system and very quickly reaching PB’s once again for the third year in a row after 6 years of training as an old fart. Race days are coming soon so the proof will be in the performance of course.
Good luck with your training. I hope you are able to see the gains you are looking for.
I had a similar above-actual-FTP AIFTP Detection, but I opted for the opposite approach of using the number given, and accepting that my Sweetspot would likely be low Threshold and my Threshold would be supra-Threshold. I didn’t fancy over-unders, so I changed my Threshold workouts to steady intervals, and that’s been great, because the lower level workouts have had me at power targets that were sometimes just below, at, or above what actual FTP felt like.
It now feels like I’m somewhere near where my initial FTP Detection was, which puts me about 5 watts under my current AIFTP. Importantly, I reckon I’m 15 to 20 watts above where I was 6 weeks ago, and that’s awesome. The training has been great and I’m feeling strong on the bike and recovering well between hard days.
I’m glad both of you have had similarly awesome results! I’ve read a few of your workout posts and you’re always crushing it.
We have three slightly different cases in here so far with the same result of big improvement. Just goes to show the system can work AND be flexible as long as we are putting in the work to recover well between the workouts. I’ll also note that almost every single workout prediction has been spot on.
I went from fearing my workouts to really looking forward to them. I didn’t think training like this could be fun but here we are.
Great Feedback! You were a key member of our “Too high FTP” support club. I’m glad to see you have graduated lol.
I may as well give my feedback also after almost completing my block with my lowered FTP.
I went from 254 to 296 in less than a month, and then up again to 301 a few weeks later.
The 296 was not what I would consider having workouts in the right zones, but got through it,
The 301 was worse and switched to a manual entry of 288 and now 290.
The AI system has done an awesome job giving me the right workouts with the manual FTP. The FTP I have selected to giving my longer TIZ SS - mainly 3x20 at 92-94% in the level 6-7 range.
My o/u workouts have progressed into the level 5 range with mainly 5x9m at achievable wattage opposed to stretch watts for only 3x9m.
I am improving and making really good strides on the lowered value and longer TIZ for workouts.
I keep checking the predicted AIFTP, and ironically it now gives me a higher predicted value on the manual plan - in 10 days it say 313w. My predicted before was 309w.
Maybe I’ll eventually grow into what the AI thinks I can do, but not for a while.
Glad to see things are going well for you! Our little thread got derailed pretty hard and then locked, so I figured we had to balance the equation with an outcomes thread.
I, too, found longer TiZ really helpful before elevating the power numbers. I’m just better able to handle the workload. In addition, when switched back to the higher FTP, the power targets seemed more in-line with what I could do, than the original workouts at plan creation. I think it works very well.
Could I hold my current FTP for a prolonged period of time? Maybe not unless I was being chased by something large and hungry, but it doesn’t matter because it is generating excellent workouts.
Great to hear that the system is working for those who are manually setting FTP as well. I think there is a slight leap of faith here and that the AI model that TR has trained potentially has some insights that might be revolutionary as is often the case when an AI model is trained on a specific set of data. The history of training has been developed over a long time through many individuals experiences and it has created systems and language that largely helps and is of course based on physiology.
What’s interesting is that it seems to be that most of us are seeing real gains from the new system which if you look at it from the traditional sense is slightly on the edge of what was previously thought as productive (SS is a certain percentage, over and unders needs to be so much under and so much over, time in zone has more benefit that higher watts with lower times) maybe just maybe TR has found some secret sauce to optimise what’s possible and that’s not that far off what many of us already know.
Hard days need to be hard but achievable and not decimating, easy days need to be easy but not too easy, consistency is king. And when you stand back at the platform it seems to be providing tools that help enable this better than it ever has.
Of course it doesn’t help that I had a bee in my helmet yesterday and had a pretty severe reaction and as a result have already screwed up the beginning of my block but then that’s life!
Good luck with the training and here is to us all getting faster!
Similar story here. AIFTP took me from 307 to 327 and the first workout was 2x20 sweet spot @ 307 watts (Eichorn+2). Had to reduce intensity 5% to get through the 2nd interval, freaked out a bit, initially manually lowered my FTP but then thought better of it and decided to re-accept the AI FTP.
After this it dropped me back to some easier sweet spot workouts and I was able to work my way up to completing that Eichorn+2 at the same level without much issue. Otherwise smooth sailing and it’s now projecting me at 340 by the end of the 2nd AI month. I’ve been setting all-time 10-30 minute power PRs left and right.
I was reading another thread where folks mentioned that deleting the updated FTP resulted in changes workout levels after reaccepting (I believe). I’m wondering if that’s responsible for the more gradual ramp up after we changed higher again.
Either way, it has worked very well for us. Im stoked for you and your progress!
I had the opposite. When the new AIFTP detection was rolled out I dropped 10 watts. Then at the same time it started recommending workouts with a higher Workout Level.
One thing I noticed with the OPs first post was that he had a pre-conceived notion of what his FTP is supposed to be, the ability to ride for X-period of time. With this new AIFTP movement I would assume TR is just going to get rid of showing people FTP. Realistically, FTP is an antiquated concept at this point. The AI should start just providing you with the right workout to achieve your goals.
I’m now in my second block after the AI rollout and I feel that this second block has me right on target with my workouts. I have not gone in to manually make too many adjustments to my workouts and it seems to be finding its way. So, I’d suggest that anyone who is feeling like there is an issue with the training plan, give it a cycle or two to work itself out and don’t modify your workouts and FTP for the sake of putting in your own opinion.
FTP is still a valid concept. Why would all the years of using it be thrown out without some understanding of why? There is no discussion byTR of why it is doing this from a scientific viewpoint
my own case is too high an ftp. A lot better with a lower ftp. I still am creeping up to where TR thinks I should be but this is partly where I think my estimate of ftp goes off. I have a good VO2 for my age. I am strong with VO2 workouts such that my power records at this time of the year are driven by VO2 workouts. Threshold I am weak at. Dropthe power for steady state rides and I will keep improving. Doing short higher watts workouts just get my ability to recover to kick in. Progress for threshold for me needs to be at a lower wattage.
TR is still good at providing workouts but I am near the end of two months of build and I can feel the effects dragging on me. Didn’t do yeasterdays 30 minute easy spin. Feel way better for today’s endurance ride. Recovery is key.
I am still debating moving up my recovery week as I do feel I need more time to recover.
If we are going to utilize a full AI system that picks your workouts for you based on your performance and not just a multiplier off of your PD curve, than FTP is not as relevant as it was.
If we are utilizing it to summarize and simplify the concept of where we are at and how we can compare ourselves to others, than it is useful.
But insofar as using FTP to pick workouts in the world of TrainerRoad, FTP is just a metric that people can play with and confuse their training program.
Brenth, what you are describing proves the argument that FTP is not as relevant. If the system were to provide you with the best VO2Max workouts for you, based on whatever the system determines. What does it matter what your FTP is? If you are getting faster and the workouts match your needs, having a metric does not provide you any value.
I don’t care what my ftp is. I care what watts I ride at for threshold. If the watts are such that 6 minute over unders get my heart rate way up there then the ramp to their number is wrong. Dial down my watts and I can do the work. That is why I have not accepted TRs ftp.
Edit: realize this is for me. It works for the majority of users.
I’m with you. I had not done any longer SS/TH work in a while, so looking at the Power Records data, it seems it’s picking TH workouts for me based on NP/AP from recent VO2 workouts, which really doesn’t make sense. I gave it a shot, but every SS/TH workout was feeling too hard and it wasn’t learning fast enough. Again, I suspect that’s because it was picking the power for my 10/12/20 minute intervals based on NP/AP from VO2 workout power at those time increments. I lowered my FTP manually, and things are working/looking much better. I still love the new system, I think I just need to give it more evidence of what my various zones look like so it can start comparing apples to apples. I feel like a few months of rides should have everything really dialed in and then I’ll turn it back on.
I didn’t have a preconceived notion of what my FTP should be. I knew what my FTP was at that time from my previous workouts. I decided against waiting for the system to adjust and getting less time in zone and dialed down manually, getting an extra week of excellent training in my legs before jumping up the workload at the higher FTP.
I think that worked better than threshold intervals that were getting my heart rate into vo2 max territory.
To be fair, I think it was right about the “over” intervals, but there was no recover during the “under”.
Anyways - everything is working better now. Getting off my rest week and getting into a harder block of training at a higher aiFTP than ever. Looking forward to seeing how that goes.
