Yes, my point is that their estimates are probably better than your own fuzzy measures of body fat.
How does your calculation changes if your body fat % is 30%?
Iām not estimating body fat, Iām estimating lean muscle mass. Gave you my methodology and comparisons to people that are roughly the same size but with very different amount of muscleā¦ however they have no upper body and look like skeletors (my wifeās term), while by comparison I have a sizable amount of upper back, arm, and chest muscle mass). Iāve stood next to low body fat specimens like TJ VanGarderen as UCI anti-doping chaperone, and bumped into Sagan, and have seen the differences between those two and myself first hand.
The chart above gives rough guidelines that are pretty easy to follow (300 to 450g carbs). These vary depending on the training Iām doing because every week has different calorie burns, so carb intake varies in response to training. And then it comes down to how you appear to recovery and respond to training, along with trends when stepping on the scale everyday.
My position is that rough estimates are good enough. Pursuing more āexactā estimates of lean mass or calories/macros is not necessary and in fact leads to a false sense of precision. Last night it was 90F / 32C on the Wed group ride, should I painstakingly attempt to refine my calorie burn estimates to compensate? Should I be sending samples of my food to the lab to get better estimates of calories? Where does it end? If you read the literature there are a lot of variables at play.
If you want muscle mass estimation, likely need to add waist, wrist and ankle measurements. Lean body mass will suffice.
Sure, I just want to disabuse you from the notion that all that extra mass is more muscle than it actually isā¦ā¦Learnt from my DEXA testings.
I have weight and height data thru end of high school. Was considered skinny AF but weighed more than Froome at the same 186cm. Itās a good baseline to use, good enough given the lack of precision on all the other stuff related to energy expenditure.
Estimates. Iām trying to disabuse you of the precision required to make use of estimates, and to take ownership of using simple tools to trend and refine calorie/macros.
If you are good at the āoff the low endā of the recommendations, I believe you. Just explaining why your numbers appear to be low to some of us that commented.
I do appreciate the feedback. If I understood correctly, you are saying that if I actually adjust my consumption by muscle mass, my numbers are more aligned with the guidelines?
The recommendations are scaled by lean body mass, as a proxy for muscle mass which stores glycogen and must be replenished, along with additional assumptions around carbs required for training. Think guidelines to get you started, and then refined based on what you actually do on the bike.
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Noob question: If I go cycling for 7 hours (endurance - tempo pace) should I pack around 7 * 60g carbohydrates? Thats 420g, how do you pack that much?
I just got into nutrition on the bike and have great results so far. But man, how did I survive my long rides last year? (packed 1 banana + 1 small bread or so)
Sorry if a bit off-topic.
90g in one or two bottles - 2bottles if Iām packing 3 bottles. Thatās 180g. Plus I scarf a banana or two before the ride. Two bananas is roughly 50g carbs. So thatās 230g and now I only need 2 or 3 ziplock bags with 90g per bag. Iām using 28oz water bottles. Bags in jersey or bib pockets.
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So you put sugar (or your mix) into the ziplock bags and then refill the bottles with them? Thatās quite a good idea. 
I just found out that for longer rides 90g/hours are recommended. So 600g carbohydrates during one ride, are you really doing this? 
I had great results with 150-200g for 3-4 hour rides (much less fatigue afterwards).
Yes. Longer rides I also pack real food. Lots of pockets, or get a bike bag.
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Ok. Thanks a lot! I will try it this weekend.
If itās not broken why fix it?. Only add more if you feel you canāt perform well after those rides or if you are overly fatigued.
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Good point, but I was overly fatigued. I think it usually started after hour three or four. With my nutrition at the moment (50g/h) I am fatigued, but quite manageable. Also I am much more concentrated while still on the bike: When I didnāt do this on long rides the last 1-2 hours where absolute hell - just trying to get home, have a meal. When sugar was low I started doing stupid decisions because I just wanted to get home.
I am trying to find out how much I really need per hour. This year so far all rides where below five hours so length is another factor I need to consider.
Itās very personal. My advice would be to start with about 30g-50g. See how you feel. It seems an improvement over your baseline. Get a massive breakfast the morning of. 90-130g.
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Yes, I try to eat good food before a ride.
Is there a ātoo muchā for carbohydrates during a ride? Is there a way to feel/know it?
Except from (long-term) weight gain or feeling sick
Iāve tried to overdo it with carbs for really long or really hard rides and I havenāt found an upper limit when Iām taking liquid carbs. >150g/hr actually felt great later in the ride. Ymmv of course.
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Like you said, weight trending in the wrong direction, or gastro issues. Some like myself have a body that appears to prefer real food to sugar water. Most of my workouts are in the 1100-1600 kcal range with an ftp of 270-ish and a lot of endurance work. I can eat enough carbs in the kitchen that I donāt need much or any carbs on the bike on up to 2 hour workouts. No change in performance or recovery if I consume on the bike, so instead of guzzling sugar water I eat vast majority of my carbs in the kitchen.
On the other hand you may simply prefer to not eat a lot of carbs in the kitchen, so you drink them on the bike.
Or you wake up early and you feel better when immediately fueling the work. Not everyone needs that, again it depends on you and some of that comes down to how good you are in the kitchen.
You may have a higher ftp, say 350W, do a lot of longer rides where you will absolutely deplete carbs in your legs/liver by 90 or 120 minutes.
Or find its really difficult to keep up in the kitchen. Definiltey want to be consuming carbs on the bike.
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I too prefer real food to sugar water. But there are days where Iām not able to eat enough before a workout, or these long rides where sugar water on the bikes makes me less vulnerable to bonking.
Also after long rides I had this really big hunger, then I ate a lot and was double fatigued (from the ride and from all the food). Now this has subsided a bit which is just more comfortable.
Still I donāt like the feeling of sugar water in me 
so I always pack real food (bananas, salt crackers etc.).
I used to run into the same thing haha! Iād be depleted from the ride and then worthless while trying to digest 
Have you tried the maltodextrin/fructose mix? Thereās a bunch of recipes floating around the forum ā Iāve found that I can take that in much, much easier than even Gatorade or other sports drinks.
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Exactly
I so far did ok with sugar + a little bit of maltodextrin (for a ratio of around 1 : 0.9). But never tried for more than 150g carbohydrates / ride in total. Let me report after tomorrow.
I also found that I need less food when off the bike, being a bit less hungry (makes kind of sense). However I gained some weight Iād like to lose again, soā¦ 
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