New TR feature - FTP estimate - thoughts

I had great gains my first season using CTS HR-based plans as well (2014-15 that would have been), but that was also my first time doing any structured training - going no structure>structure is usually a good way to get big gains…

I still keep a pretty close eye on HR but more retrospective than actually in the workout. When I start to see supressed HR (over a few workouts not a one off) that’s normally a good sign I need a break.

Kinda hard on the CTS ones to increase output - since it’s HR-based so you don’t exactly know what the output is anyway and for O/Us you might be talking a variability of a handful of BPM which could be slightly different on any given day. My recollection is that the intervals got longer through the plan, but I would have to dig the book out to check as it is years since I looked.

The TR plans drive progression in several ways - increasing the %, increasing the interval duration and increasing the number of intervals in a set/number of sets (e.g., 10x 30/30s to 15x) - all of which are pretty normal… I don’t think it’s correct to say that most plans (from any provider) are based on fixed duration and increasing intensity in any case.

Indeed you have to base this setting on what you can finish comfortable as a workout. At the end it are numbers, FTP numbers in Zwift are always at the high side…

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I don’t see how you can set up all your zones off a single FTP number in the first place. We don’t all have the same textbook power curve. I’ve come to set my interval targets more from the perceived effort. If I’m finding my intervals overly difficult or failing then I know I need to dial the targets back and vice-versa if they are too easy. I’ve been cycling long enough to have a pretty good idea what my FTP is anyway during the season. It doesn’t vary that much to make a great difference (let’s say +/- 10% seasonally) and it’s pretty obvious when it’s going up or down or having an off-day or whatever. Chasing FTP numbers is great motivation for someone starting out fresh from their couch over the first year or so, but after that it kind of loses its novelty. I usually do 1 proper FTP test (not a ramp test, at least 20 mins and preferably a 40-45 min TT) each season as a benchmark and that’s it for “FTP numbers”.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: :tada::tada::tada: Introducing AI FTP Detection :tada::tada::tada:

No, they prescribe on Power, HR, and RPE. This is how I started in 2016:

https://www.strava.com/training-plans/cycling-training-glossary

and its also in the Time Crunched Cyclist 3rd edition I have on my library. I seamlessly switched from HR to power in October 2016.

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I think we are just talking about different things. It’s not really important though. Sorry for tangent.

Today I received my new FTP estimate for the first time. I went from a modest 174 to a slightly less modest 179. This came after doing 6 week SSB LV 1 and starting a new 6 week block of training. I feel this to be accurate. I really liked how Goddard -4 felt with the new estimate. I always hated the ramp test and opted for the 20 min. FTP test. Both need to be executed well to get a fair estimate of FTP. A lot can go wrong in doing these tests. Anyway, I am thrilled by this new feature and am grateful to the TrainerRoad team for it’s development. If workouts become too hard or too easy AT or my own adjustment will suffice. For those of you who continue with the tests, I tip my helmet to you. But for me, I think this new feature will work quite nicely.

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Sorry, obviously misremembering - I did it on HR but haven’t used it for a long time now, although I do remember that now you mention it.

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Think the answer to your forum question would be

  • yes, same intervals
  • threshold and below are being done by %FTP
  • when FTP increases, the absolute power increases but the %FTP, TSS, and IF stay the same

I’ll give you a TR example from Sustained Power Build Part1 and Part2 with screenshots from before AT:

Part 1:

Part 2:

Notice the increasing difficulty/TSS from part1 to part2. And IF often increases as well, but not always. However there is a clear progression in training load (total work) over 8 week build across these Sustained Power zones:

  • Tuesday is zone5, and difficulty/TSS increases from Part 1 to Part 2
  • Thursday is upper zone4/threshold, and difficulty increases from Part 1 to Part 2
  • Saturday is lower zone4/threshold, and difficulty increases from Part 1 to Part 2

Pre-AT you can see that mid-block FTP changes had no impact on increasing progression across the 2 build blocks. And the same while using the CTS/FasCat/Velocious plans. If you have an unexpected bump in fitness, you keep doing the work as planned.

Post-AT there are new TR talking points that could be interpreted as TR diplomatically saying, pre-AT, TR plans were doing it wrong (whatever ‘it’ is). Because now I read that FTP increases will result in lower difficulty workouts in order to provide a “smoother progression” and “workouts aren’t suddenly more difficult.” And post-AT many plans reduced intensity, before the plans were indexed to your PLs. And I think that is a good thing!

The difference between TR and CTS/FasCat/Velocious/lots-of-other-coaches is that TR has less endurance and more intervals. And post-AT, TR has moved a little bit towards the rest of the structured training world.

I just did a ramp test. I did have AI FTP estimation enabled, but no estimate appeared. Sadly, dropped 5 watts, which seems to be usual for me this time of the year. I guess 3 weeks of VO2 Max intervals isn’t going to raise my FTP. Getting old is a b.

Were you on your Career page? That’s the only place to access the FTP Detection at the moment.

Didn’t show anywhere

And you have all the other settings right in the Early Access page of your TR account settings?

I had the early access enabled, but not adaptive training. I had been doing a semi polarized block with a progression of VO2 intervals.

Circling back to this thread and my reasons for starting the topic → Tainerroad has now said that they prefer everyone going through the progression levels instead of constantly adjusting their FTP. Also, they have increased the amount of time between FTP estimates to 40+ days.

This confirms my reasons for starting the topic. If you present people the option to constantly assess their FTP, they will prefer trying to up that number instead doing productive work if given the opportunity. :wink:

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  • This is more conditional than absolute. Discussion in the pending “Automatic” AIFTP Detection discussion as well as others mention times when stepping up FTP makes sense vs times when pushing further into Progression Levels should be the focus. It’s not a single answer and will vary with the individual, their selected discipline and phase within the broader training plan.
  • That is not correct. At present it’s 14 days and there have been mentions that it might push out to 28 days in the future. Much of that is covered in the thread mentioned above.
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Have a question regarding scheduling a ramp test to get a new AI estimate:
My last estimation was 6 weeks ago (24th may). I‘m now in speciality phase as my main A event is next sunday (17th july).
Adaptive training scheduled a ramp test after the race and an additional recovery week, which would be then 9 weeks after the last estimate (which seems long to me).
Is it wise to reestimate manually (putting a ramp test in)? Curiosity nags of course shortly in front of a race!
Thanks :blush:

I’ve tried doing ramp tests twice after doing a detection and the detection was just 1 or 2 watts off (too high) both of these times I hadn’t even ridden with a power meter for quite a while even (just heart rate)

If you look at the speciality plans there are no scheduled ramp tests during the 8 week block. I would not bump ftp right before an event. Do it afterwards when Plan Builder put it in.

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I’m not a coach, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so take this for what it’s worth. TR has mentioned on podcasts that the speciality phase is all about specificity of the energy systems your going to use and getting ready for your event. It is not about boosting your ftp. This is the reason there is not ramp test scheduled during the 8 weeks from my understanding. And personally I wouldn’t want to use a new ftp during an event to set a pacing strategy. Then again I’m just a regular Joe and others might have different thoughts.