Correct.
1 Like
@empiricalcycling Can you expand on this a bit when you get a chance? I see from the WKO5 charts in your TP article that the FTP is just to the right of a “kink” in the PDC. But it seems some of this could be affected by the choice of x-axis scale, which is not linear. That is, a steady decline in output vs. duration could appear to have a kink simply because an inch of x-axis changes from representing 10 minutes to representing 1 hour. Thanks for your input already, and doubly so if you get to share some more on this.
1 Like
Looking at the curve with a log x axis doesn’t change anything about the underlying physiology. If you look at a linear x axis, the inflection point visually disappears but it doesn’t change the nature of the phenomenon. Log transformation of data is a visual convenience, and will not affect us as long as we remember this fact. If we manipulate transformed data or treat it as the original data set, it can definitely be an issue. Any metric I’ve created uses data from the linear time scale rather than the log-time, as do all of the metrics in wko5 that I can think of.
Log scale or not, we’re looking for the point above which fatigue occurs much more quickly, and below which fatigue is slower. Let’s look at it without a scale. I’ll go to wko5 and look at the last athlete I had up. He can hold his FTP for 61 minutes. If we add 5% to his FTP, he can hold that 17 minutes. If we subtract 5%, he can hold it for 94 minutes. I didn’t need to log transform anything for this relationship to occur.
But going into wko5 and un-logging the x-axis, I can still see the inflection point 
The very short durations become visually very muddled.
2 Likes
@empiricalcycling,
Having done @alexgold123’s baseline test.. I made it to the ramping bit of the test and the total duration of my test was 35 mintutes. I am wondering if I can really trust that my TTE is really 35 minutes? or could i have not included the ramp and maybe gone for a full 60 minutes at the pre-ramp power…
PS. Thanks for sharing this testing protocol, I actually feel really refreshed now 30 minutes after the test and ready for some easy recovery riding later this evening. where-as I think usually after a ramp test, I barely even want to do the recovery ride the day after!
It was absolutely valuable to explore the feelings of extended riding at FTP and will do again.
1 Like
For reference, what is your max heart rate?
Hard to say. I’ve seen plenty of 35 minute TTEs. It’d be easier to tell in the context of your data. Put up a screenshot of your power curve (log x-axis ) and it should be somewhat apparent.
@empiricalcycling gosh… there are so many different ways to present the power curve… sorry lol
from WKO5… last 30 days only…
and from TR: my personal records graphs comparing my 2019 base season to my 2020 base season… without using the season-match feature…
and comparing my 2020 base to my 2019 overall…
WKO5 power duration model showing the last 90 days… hiding the PD curve for clarity…
and not hiding the PD curve
and the PD curve for just this workout test…
190 I guess…
Thanks. Interesting. If you have been less than 10 beats away from your max and assuming I could/should ride at similar HR %, I might aim higher then set FTP for my test when I get around to actually test. Today I did 3 x 45 @ 90% and HR was 153-162 with my max at 183.
Or I will just smash Sa Calobra when/if I get there in March 
1 Like
Yup, that’s a real 35 minute TTE. Honestly it’s not surprising, I see it a lot in people who don’t go much beyond 2x20 or 40 minute criteriums, or who train >FTP more than they train <FTP.
3 Likes
I am not an expert and to be honest beginner cyclist but your PDC looks very similar to mine 2 months ago and same TTE. I am not sure if I would bother with pushing FTP up and setting it perfectly - I would rather focus on pushing curve right (so extending the duration). Doing longer intervals will help a lot. This will also improve your stamina metrics and make all type intervals a lot easier. Look WKO webinar about training FTP, it was very helpful. The plus side is that working on the longer intervals and time in zones you will also bump your FTP as a side effect
But it is only my 2 cents, since I am no coach I have no professional advice, only my limited personal experience with being in the same situation.
1 Like
That’s me in a nutshell… lol…
TR plans that i was following never get that long in terms of sustained efforts… but I’m studying the wko stuff… it sounds promising… those webinars that you and Tim made are amazing! I hadn’t seen any of them till today ty @jarsson for mentioning them…
1 Like
Dear Kolie – your FTP test is broken.
I did the test today and stopped at 49min (because I’m scared of my heart exploding…that’s another issue…) but I could very well have continued beyond 60min. Extrapolating out, I’m uber-guessing my TTE could be 70-75min. As well, your test gave me a 255w FTP (and perhaps a 260w extrapolated FTP…? I dunno, I’m too lazy to do that math).
This can’t be correct.
For context, I did zero (0) training for the last 4 months. I rolled my Beluga self off the couch and onto the bike 3 weeks ago (cue Fat Bastard gif). I did this FTP test last year when I was actually in shape and did much worse than this test (higher FTP but much lower TTE), which is why I’m assuming your protocol must be malfunctioning.
Last 3 weeks of FTP test results:
20min test = 220w
60min test = 240w
Kolie test = 255w
Last 3 weeks of training:
10 hours of Tempo
2 hours of Endurance
1 hour of Sweet Spot
TR Test (ended before I did):
TP Test (w/o cool-down):
The ending to the TR file is a bit weird because I didn’t have any ramp reference numbers so I went down to the last TR wattage and just did whatever. My power for the ramp portion is ~4% higher than target…if that means anything to anyone. 
Time to eat!
2 Likes
I assume this is a joke post?
Welp, one way or another you put out 254 W average over nearly an hour, and pretty steady too so no concerns that it’s an artifact of highly variable output. Regardless of what protocol you were trying to follow, isn’t this kind of the pudding wherein lies the proof?
Nice workout! I’m curious to know how you’re feeling the day after day after that… just like if you went on cold turkey… it could hurt for a long while after! But idk
Feeling great! No ill effects from the test.
I was going to do an hour of Z2 after the test but decided to call it and give my ticker a rest.
Was going to do another Tempo w/o today but thought better of it and took a rest day.
I’ve been bored (and liked the look of ‘progression 2’) so have done some updating of my takes on these. On the ‘team’ workouts there is now baseline, progression 1, progression 1 but with a longer ramp and progression 2. Progression 3 I’ll leave out, as it’s essentially the hour record.
Hope the variations are as useful as the original! Have fun…
8 Likes
Whenever I’ve done the long tests, I’ve felt great the following day assuming I’ve eaten well enough after the test. I think (for me at least) the longer tests are more of a slow bleed instead of a traditional step test that only lasts about 30 min’s but has me really going deep into reserves; HR during longer FTP test never approaches max, but at the end of the step test I’m really hitting up against max HR.
Yeah, i did it on Saturday and for the first half of the day after, i didn’t feel great but then the energy was back in the late afternoon and i did a short tempo ride plus lifting… surprised myself a little!