Good. I think the beauty of the longer test is that it gives you a number that is repeatable from day to day within a few % in smaller chunks. Provided sleep and fueling have been decent, you can manage FTP sessions and not feel like you’re too drained.
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Agreed! Going into a plan that has say 10 minute threshold intervals and knowing ‘well I’ve ridden that wattage for 40 minutes straight’ is a big confidence boost.
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Circling back around to this concept for myself. I did Kolie’s Baseline test today, and admittedly my TTE is pretty short: I dropped off just after the 11th minute of the second phase (the 102%). I did feel like I held back a bit and could have probably gave it a couple watts more throughout the main portion of the test, so there’s definitely room for improvement.
However, my question is this: essentially, because I did 10min at 98%, then 11min at 102% (with some extra W above 102% for a few minutes before crashing), in practice, this doesn’t seem any different than a standard 20 min FTP test. However, if I take the raw average of those 21 minutes (236W) via the Kolie way, I’d be skewing my true FTP high since i’m not multiplying by 95% compared to the 20 Min Test.
When I did a ramp test 6 weeks ago, it returned a result that was about 220W, 10-13W lower than I’m comfortable doing workouts at, so I overrode that and manually bumped it up to 233W, and have been completing all the workouts appropriately (as well as this Kolie one). So, TTE aside (something I’ll work on), should my FTP be ~220W (Traditional 20min & Ramp) or 236W (Kolie)? I wouldn’t lower it below what I went into today’s eval at (233W) as I’m a threshold and sweet spot focused rider - setting my FTP around 220W makes most program workouts too easy, versus now (at 233W) where only the VO2 max efforts are exceedingly tough. It would just be good to know what my “true” FTP should be.
What phase of training are you at now/have you got to previously?
I’d personally call 21 minutes not long enough to ‘prove’ an FTP, but if you’ve got through a build phase or even something like Mary Austin with that FTP you might have just had a bad day on test day.
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In this case you have established not a FTP but your personal best for 20 minutes. TTE of 20 suggests rather that this is not your FTP (assuming 30-70 definition).
We all love numbers and it is great that you were able to finish the workouts but this is your not FTP or your muscle endurance is quite neglected.
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As @jarsson has stated & according to my understanding of Mr. Moore’s definition of ftp, the number you’re using for ftp is too high. My advice would be to back it down to 95% & continue your training at that reduced number.
I did the test a few weeks back & performed pretty much the same as you. As I was in the middle of build & had been feeling absolutely destroyed from the workload, I was stoked to realize that I had my ftp set too high so I took 95% of my 20 minutes & used that number. About a month later, I’m pretty much out of the hole I dug myself & will reassess Friday. At my inflated ftp I was pretty damn close to throwing in the towel on structure & going back to the “just ride a lot” training plan but now I’m going into specialty with my first race 9 weeks out knowing I’ll be better prepared than if I was just putting in miles.
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Thanks! I just finished SSB MVII and started Sustain Power. I did Mary Austin -2 in mid Feb and was just barely successful in that. I’d like to say that my misconception of this test did me no favors and if I hadn’t gone above the target power during the first 20 min, I would have lasted into the 30th min and beyond, but there’s no way of knowing until I attempt it next time.
So for this to produce a reliable/usablee FTP, how far into the protocol does one need to progress?
I’m not the expert, and all signs seem to be pointing to ~220 as a correct number - but doing Mary Austin -2 which is essentially 5x10 at very close to threshold with a higher number throws a spanner in the works!
If it were me and I’d managed 21 minutes on the Tuesday and thought it wasn’t a correct result, I’d try again in place of the Thursday workout. If pacing is an issue maybe try the progression 2 variation. Bearing in mind that the interpretations of the protocols that I’ve put into TR workout form of these tests are designed around slightly improving FTP at a bare minimum, so if I’ve done the maths right turning the workout down to 99% will end up (on progression 2) giving you confirmation of FTP once you reach 40 minutes of the test portion. If you have anything left at that point you can do the 5 minutes all out at the end to get any potential increase.
Alternatively, you could just do the planned workouts, when you get to Carpathian Peak you’ll know if you’re on the right track or not!
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And if your FTP is honest, you shouldn’t have a problem with 4x10min @ FTP. I always dreaded these types of workouts, now I know why. FTP was set too high.
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It looks to me like you were working well above the intended power for the last 2-3 minutes, with the screenshot showing 251. What was your average for the last 5 minutes? It could be that you went too hard too soon and just gave up.
The brilliant thing about an empirical test is that you can also go with what your gut is telling you. I don’t do this exact test, I start at 100% current ftp for 10 minutes then do 5 min steps of 1%. I’m constantly thinking about whether the current power is sustainable for at least 40 minutes. The last test I performed I hit the stop button 3 minutes into the 103% section as I knew I had passed that point. I felt the balance swing between 102 and 103%, and felt that really 101% was probably fairly accurate. As it turned out, the workouts for the following 3 weeks were hard, but doable, and I only had to dial the intensity back on Ansel Adams, and that was during the second and third set.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, just be honest with yourself. The number is just there to help set out the optimal training zones, it’s not a badge. If you think 220 isn’t right, go with what your gut is telling you. If you’re completing hard workouts, then it could be that you’ve set your training number right. 
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Righto - I’m going to repeat the test tomorrow (2 days after the previous one), as I likely set the target too high and now have a better understanding that it’s necessary to get at least 25min into the test portion (as the fine print of Alex’s Workout states). As someone suggested, I was probably targeting 20min power instead of “true” FTP, since I was allowing myself to go well above target for a few minutes before crapping out. The average for the last 5 minutes of the test portion was 245W, btw.
Thanks, all, for the help; sorry to hijack the thread.
Good idea.
You said your last estimated ftp was 233. So at 245 you were at 105% of previous estimate. I’d say that’s why you failed. Bump it up slowly and you’ll know when you’re at the tipping point.
Yep, already explained in detail upthread, quoted below.
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According to Alan Couzens, I’m a “high responder” which might explain the above. 
https://alancouzens.com/blog/athlete_type.html
https://alancouzens.com/blog/training_responder.html
My last 3 “seasons”:
It’ll be interesting to see if I morph back into a “workhorse” once the newb gains are gone.
Been intrigued with this for awhile, and got around to taking a crack at it today:
(Not sure why the image is bunked… the rest after the warm-up intervals was 5 minutes)
My result is 214W, almost dead-on with my most recent ramp test of 213W. Previous ramp tests had me at 227 and 221, both of which proved too intense for long intervals. I had set a modest target of 217W. I may have done better, really, if the 15 minute on-target session was 20 or more - I felt like I had more at that W’age.
My pet theory for this is that I came into this training season really fresh, with all my fast- and intermediate fibers at the ready to push higher watts for shorter periods. As those intermediate fibers convert, that went away and now, maybe, the ramp test is more in line with reality. I say maybe, as I’m basing this on only three ramp tests and one Moore test and a whole bunch of other life disruptions I hadn’t dealt with over my previous two seasons.
Irrespective of FTP numbers, I’ve def seen growth on the road in fast group rides. I almost don’t care about numbers right now, other than just following what TR throws at me, and adjusting if it’s obviously too hard or easy.
I will say, I don’t feel whacked after either of these protocols, but I def enjoyed this a lot more. For one thing, my mind does math really fast and can’t resist doing so, so I can “see” where a ramp test is going and that can get in my head. The Moore test outcome is harder to calculate on the fly. Also, I came off this feeling like I had a killer workout, whereas the ramp test cooks my goose for those last 2-3 steps. Then, I quickly recover and wonder what more I should do.
This was great; never been so stoked after a 1W gain in FTP. Modest as it is, it just feels way more honest. My next challenge is to behave myself in group tomorrow 
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True that… one thing this whole thread inspired me to do well ahead of doing the test was to swap some TR workouts featuring shorter, harder intervals at 98-105% with workouts based in longer SS intervals, building out toward a full hour at SS levels. Still working on it, trying to navigate a lot of work and time challenges, but that’s what I’m committed to. I’ve been creating my own SS workouts extending interval time, and compressing the rest periods.
Last spring, I was riding well in some very strong groups. I looked back through my training at the time and that’s what I had done - built out SS workouts to 90 minutes. Those were on (albeit flat) open roads, so I should be able to top the quality of that work with an indoor approach.
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This time last year I did a ramp test and a Kolie test, both gave me the same FTP but the latter actualized my TTE which the ramp (and TR w/o) can’t do.
This is exactly what I had to do after doing SSB, SPB, and back to SSB. Second time into SSB, I found it ridiculous that I was doing the same duration intervals as my first time through. TR’s only ever going to give you 30mins max. I started doing 30, 45, 60min SS sessions (although mostly ~40min session for race specificity). Thank god for the Workout Creator!
Alternatively, you can always sched a normal workout and just ride through the rest periods.
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Yes… the WC is a completely underused aspect of TR, I think
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in many ways, I’m now convinced that you need to be equally prioritizing improving both TTE at FTP as well as the magnitude of the FTP power number… the only way to improve your TTE with TR plans is to work your way up to the HV plan… and once you’re at the HV plan, maybe move back to MV plan again with elevated FTP and then slowly step that back up to HV with the elevated FTP. rinse and repeat… but IDK surely some of the TR coaches disagree with this.
If you examine the MV plans… there is some extension of time in zone to help extend TTE but it always will ultimately only get you so far…