Kolie Moore's FTP test protocol

That’s… a bummer. Have to say I don’t understand. Lots of valuable contributions from other forum members in there. Could @empiricalcycling have been more specific about what he wanted removed, so that the collective wisdom from the thread didn’t have to be completely wiped out? To be clear I get that you’re just doing your volunteer job, @mcneese.chad, and this might have added way to much to your work load if even possible at all.

P.S. I too was looking for it a few days ago with the plan of doing some FTP work per KM’s protocols.

Should probably just have a thread dedicated to WKO-style training progressions where we talk block progressions. Right now it’s a smash-up of the Sweet Spot Progression thread, this thread, and the old KM podcast wisdom thread.

Or maybe Extensive base, Intensive FTP, and Build threads… that is if we want to use this forum for those discussions because facebook sucks. :slight_smile:

Yeah, I considered the relative loss of info, which is very real and unfortunate. I also considered the effort to sift through over 1000 posts. That volume, coupled with my relative lack of knowledge and comfort in this area, lead me to pick the lesser of two evils / efforts.

As mentioned by Kurt, for better future maintenance, I do think the idea of more separated and targeted threads here (single topics when possible) makes more sense than what was essentially a massive dump of info on a wide range of topics (at least from my limited ability to see the range).

Makes sense, thanks.

A real bummer provided the value that I was able to get from that thread, but completely understandable. Even though myself and I’m sure many others received a lot of quality info and became fans of some of the Kolie Moore ideology, I can also see how some of the comments by a select amount of people weren’t helpful to the Empirical Cycling business.

Thanks @mcneese.chad for letting us know. Definitely sounds like a good idea to focus on more general threads from now on in order to keep some of the ideas flowing (and get some ideas started again).

I’m not too bright. Why is removing all that content “understandable” in the slightest?

Just remove Kolie’s posts and the OP’s. Or better yet have them delete their own shit.

What about the rest of the users who posted thoughts, ideas, and wisdom? They don’t count?

This…is really lame.

Hopefully Kolie sticks to Reddit from now on. Maybe put all his ideas behind a paywall if he’s losing IP and/or money on his stuff.

Feels like a kid taking his ball and going home. Harumph.

“Understandable” for me refers to respecting @mcneese.chad and Kolie Moore as well as OP’s decision to delete the post.

I don’t at all agree with it and struggle to realize how purging all the thread was the better option, but completely understand that if that’s what Kolie wanted to do, he has the right to since his and his company’s name is the one being thrown around on a forum

I guess. But now anytime we discuss anything other than TR, it can just be purged at the whim of the company? Seems like a heavy handed approach.

I don’t want to take money from anyone. If Kolie feels like there too much out there and he’s giving us all the recipe for KFC so to speak, fine. Get your stuff out of here. Or better yet, be quiet and paywall it.

But I strenuously object to potentially hundreds of users not having a say in how THEIR DATA is handled.

What’s next? Dr. Seiler objects to Nate and the rest of the crew mocking HIS information? And all of the sudden we lose those threads as well? Dylan Johnson probably has a beef how his video was taken out of context, maybe we lose that thread too.

Yeah, I’m not feeling it.

I don’t think that’s the case:

Or this either:

Seeing as there has been a wait-list for his coaching services for a while now, I don’t think he’s worried about the press he was getting.

That said, I agree, locking might’ve been better, but I can sort of understand the sentiment behind just taking it down - it was an unmanageable mess, covering everything Kolie has ever talked about, with so many repeated questions and debates because of the huge size of the thread. Making one thread per podcast episode / series makes more sense IMO.

Also don’t think this was about TR censoring alternative training philosophies, that would be very unusual behaviour for them.

Perhaps it’s my poor wording but I don’t want to imply TR sensors any other training philosophies. In fact. I think they welcome it.

The point I was trying to make was that users, and Kolie is a user just like you are (and nothing more) shouldn’t be able to demand that content be taken down that isn’t theirs. Which is why I gave the Dylan Johnson example. He could complain to CustSpt that he doesn’t like things about that long thread about him and his videos and (because of the precedent set by this censorship) TR would just zap everyone else’s content to appease him. Hundreds of posters lose their thoughts.

Meh, I just expect a little better. I’m disappointed in TR I guess.

That’s not at all what happened. I will try to clarify.

  • I am the person who reviewed the request from Kolie and the others involved, via private message. I considered all of their comments, the specific request and the potential implications related to this removal. After that, I made the call and removed the thread.

  • For clarity, I am not a TR employee. I am an unpaid volunteer with moderator/admin access granted by TR. I do not speak for TR in any official manner on the forum or elsewhere, but I do my best to help moderate the forum discussions when appropriate.

  • The key point I am trying to make is that I made this decision and deleted the thread. It was not TR, nor anyone else. Don’t blame TR or anyone else for my actions and choice. I did this. I own my actions, and if this is a mistake, I own that too.

  • Upon completion of the delete, I notified Ivy of my actions as an FYI. I did this because I expected there could be some question of my actions at some point (much like we are now seeing). I explained the request, my consideration and action, so she would have some basic understanding if we had any issues.

This is not an easy action anytime I have to consider it. I try to weigh the issues as best I can and act as I hope is best for the forum and/or individuals involved.

  • Unlike these examples you share (Seiler, Johnson) this thread and request to remove it were driven directly by the effective subject of the thread, originator and active participants. Their direct involvement is the reason I handled this as I did.

  • We have many discussions here with plenty of positive and negative comments on a number of topics and content presenters. They remain as long as they are within the forum guidelines and whenever possible, we only remove offending posts when appropriate.

  • This is NOT censoring or some maleficent action by me or TR. This is just a larger example of actions I have performed for other users per their requests. Some have made the decision to either leave the forum or remove some of their posts (which also contained may posts from others). I honored those OP’s wishes, and removed the threads as requested, despite the shared loss of their posts and those of other users.

I understand the frustration and disappointment. This was not an easy decision, but I made a choice based on particular info and requests.

I am tagging @IvyAudrain so she can see my comments and the related discussion here. If anyone has a problem with me or how I handled this, please feel free to contact me or Ivy as you see fit.

As with any contentious times on the forum, I will review my role and do my best to learn from it for the future.

Ahh you’re a good dude. EVERYONE appreciates what you do here.

Thanks for clarifying your thinking. I appreciate the flesh out.

I still disagree with how it was handled. But I get it.

And I won’t turn into what I despise in others when whiners carry on for way too long. So thanks for acknowledging our objections. I consider it “finished” and will say no more.

Keep on keepin on.

Can we get this thread back to talking about the KM protocol? Tired of sifting through this thread to see actual relevant discussions on the topic as well.

Every time I think I’m done here, someone says I should probably log back in and clarify something.

Yes, I requested the thread be taken down, and I was not the only one. Personally I think it’s a bad forum design to not allow a thread’s OP to delete it, which means a lot of weight falls onto the moderators who are doing the best they can with as light a touch as possible.

However. The devolvement into the nadir of internet arguments bugged me and others a lot, along with the fact that about twice a month someone would message me and ask “dude, what the actual fuck is going on over on the TR forum and how is that not moderated?” re: that thread. It managed to weasel past the TR forum’s guidelines, and my own expectations, for reasonable debate. That it was ostensibly about how “wise” I am in my training philosophy was also annoying to some other folks–who shall remain nameless including in all your replies here–by virtue of a clashing of philosophies and just more shitty debate, and they didn’t look good either. It doesn’t bother me to look like a fool or an asshole, which can be seen all over the internet and in the podcasts, I’m fine owning up to that. But people can refrain from ad hominem attacks and still be the worst kind of troll, and there was a lot of that there. Chad gave me a warning for that too. Mea culpa, and that was me being incredibly restrained. Seems to me when people read that thread they came away with affirmations of the internet being a bad place to spend what little emotional energy we have, rather than learning things, which is what this forum, and that thread, are ostensibly for.

In terms of business, it was actually stupid of me to ask for it to be taken down. I’ve found that any press really is good press, and name awareness (I hate the word “brand”) is a large driver of podcast listens and coaching inquiries regardless. I did get third coach though, so the wait list is mostly gone (there are still a few waiting specifically for me and Alex to get some open spots) and he’s got open roster slots, so send those inquiries in! He’s really fantastic btw, has been coaching longer than me (coaches tri and running a lot better too) and has a lot more degrees and is a really good addition to Empirical Cycling.

I don’t actually think that if someone puts content into the world they have a right and to defend themselves, and I think the same goes for anyone who’s a content creator up to and especially including me. (Of course that doesn’t mean all criticisms are constructive or veracious.) Though I am grateful for those here who have gotten faster with my training philosophy for sticking up for it (and also honesty about when it, or I, have not been so great), and also being very kind and gracious humans. And if I did jump into every debate I’d never have any time to make more podcasts, the doing of which occupies almost the entirety of my free time… which I am just now realizing means I work twice the hours I think I do… but that’s a me problem. Yikes. Anyway.

Please continue to share the podcast, thanks to everyone who knows who they are for the support here, and also thanks to others for always poking holes in my training philosophy. I’ve learned a lot like that, and will learn more. As long as things don’t devolve into bad faith arguments and typical internet trolling, I dgaf what gets said. Post a new thread for each podcast or idea, and let it be focused on that topic and ignore all bad faith arguers, and don’t be dicks. And if anyone does blame me (I probably should take most of it) and wants to be a dick just email me since it’s easier to delete, but I’ll be sure to put it on social media for posterity first since that’s all I think was really contained in that thread.

I expect that any more requests for thread deletions from me will be denied, though I hope it doesn’t get to the point where I, and others, are requesting that again. We only live once and everything is meaningless, so we might as well be nice to people.

I did the baseline test protocol for the first time today because I don’t trust my ramp test results. Last ramp test result was 241 watts.

I bailed out when I was 21 minutes into the test:

The notes tell you have to test at least 25 minutes. What should I do? Test again with a lower target? Or just go with something like 230 watts?

IMO take a day recovery and try it again without erg mode, just by feeling. Erg mode will mess it up and you won’t be able to feel the effort which is quite important.

If you have a good power curve you could probably just go off that and try for a better test next time. But it would be important to know your TTE at FTP especially if you’re going into a SweetSpot, Threshold, or extended power block.

Good one today for me, confirming the FTP increase I manually decided on after some workouts in SSB LVII

317W for the 45min, so I’m sticking with my 315. Not a TTE test but I certainly could have gone significantly longer without such an all out effort in the final 5min. I like this progression though since 1h15m is all the time I have before work.

Not sure if I did this right, but 315-ish felt like threshold so I just kept it there thinking I would crack somewhat early. Probably could have gone at least 5 min longer if I really wanted :thinking:

I got 336w from saturdays Ramp test, but I think I could hold that for maybe 25 minutes.

I’d say for feel for threshold probably isn’t dialed and your FTP is closer to 330W.