Kolie Moore's FTP test protocol

The progression you have propsed is good but for threshold. The 90% you can hold way longer (and way I mean 2x or longer after some training). So basically if your TTE is 40 minutes and you want to start very gentle 3x15@90%, 4x15@90%, 3x20@90, maybe 3x25, 4x20, 2x30, 3x30, 2x40. 2x a week is a lot time to recover even if sustained power is not your strong side.

Edit–
And I am really sorry if I sound condensending but many people here very underestimate their ability to do longer intervals. And they are hard when you start training but then, you can really easly do them without any problem.

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One question I have regarding sweetspot intervals in this context - how important is progression?
There is a lot of talk of going through a progression of interval lengths, and I do understand that training needs to get harder/change over time to remain effective.
It does however seem to me that most SS workouts in trainerroad have fairly short intervals - lots in the 10-15 minute range.
If I can do 2x20, or 3x20, why should I go back to shorter intervals with more rest? Is backing off and doing a ‘progression’ better than doing the longer intervals that I can do, but with much smaller changes in duration? Putting it another way, it seems that often to get the ‘progression’, workouts start out too easy, so that at the end of the block they can be more along the lines of what you can really do.
I haven’t been following a plan this year, but I plan to get back on one soon, so this will become a lot less academic and more practical for me in the next few weeks :slight_smile:

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I’ll piggyback and agree 100% 90% tte should be way longer like 2x. Once u get your ftp set right its not too bad:)

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I understand (probably) this from TR point of view, and from new user perspective. But then comes the individual perspective and adjusting the training to your needs. If you can do longer intervals and more of them - definitely you should do them:) If I can do 90min of SST in one go without much of a problem, starting with 3x15 would be a little bit pointless from adaptations perspective.

Of course then is the training composition. If I want to stack workouts like in HV plans then probably doing 1x90, 3 times in a row would be too much. So then shorter TiZ workouts have their place. So basically every workout should be considered as part of a bigger whole, not in isolation.

But, I am no expert in this and probably have only scraps of knowledge in comparision to many smarter people here and some coaches.

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IMO the short intervals are because the FTP tests in TR often overestimate FTP. Not just the ramp test - even with 20mins, you still have a significant anaerobic contribution. If you look at it the other way round, if you did a 10 mile TT, would you aim for your FTP, or slightly above?

As a consequence, the sweetspot intervals in TR are really at threshold for a lot of users, so 10min intervals are ok. And the threshold intervals are more like long, low vo2 intervals, so having them at 10 min max probably also works. Also those usually come later in block, and the assumption is that FTP would have increased before them (bringing them back down to threshold).

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Yeah this 100%. I’ve been looking through completed workouts and Donner in SSB2 seems to be a breaking point. 3x12 minutes just under “FTP” with 6 minute rests should be doable by absolutely everyone who’s made it through SSB1 - and yet I’m seeing about a 1 in 4 failure rate for those who used the ramp test to set FTP.

No judgement here - I failed Donner the second time through base - that was my first clue something was wrong.

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You would aim to go as fast as possible, and end up riding it over FTP - but isn’t that what the 95% correction factor is for?

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And as we all know, emergent physiological phenomena are easily reduced to simple linear equations without any loss of generality.

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You could still follow a TR plan in part by doing say, the weekly Saturday progression from Olympic Triathlon Build Mid Vol? That would start you out with 4x9 Threshold with generous 1:1 rests and 75 mins at Tempo, and progress you to 5x10 with 1:2 rests and 75 mins at high SweetSpot. Comparing how the RPE feels during those alternating workouts would probably give you clues about your strengths/weaknesses and what might help you to work on (shorter and higher, lower and longer). I think calibrating RPE is a part of the KM testing philosophy.

The TR plan progressions are achievable for most I think, that’s the business model. The cost of setting interval goals that are too long or ambitious and not completing your whole planned progression is feeling like you failed, being confused about where to go next or what else to try, and losing the opportunity to complete more aerobic work which you could have done with less ambitious targets. The cost of completing your whole progression at less ambitious targets is nothing except maybe wondering what you could have achieved if you’d gone all out. But you just did that with the FTP test right?

I didn’t say that it was accurate.

I was just pointing out that you wouldn’t use your power from a maximal 20 minute effort or a 10 mile TT as your FTP, which is how splash made it sound.

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TR sweetspot intervals are also rarely just 90% of FTP in their base plan(s). This week I did Mary Austin, Leconte & SS90/60 1x60min. The two TR workouts were somewhat challenging and got painful towards the end. The 60min @ 90 was easy in comparison.

Both of those, Mary Austin and Leconte are THRESHOLD intervals, so yes I would hope 60 minutes SST @ 90% would be easy in comparison, I don’t really get your point?

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My apologies. I thought both of those were considered largely sweetspot.

I did the Baseline test a week ago.

Ramp Test: 301W
Baseline Test: 294W for 35:42

First thought to me was that it was way harder than the ramp test both physically and mentally. I’ve always recovered quickly from the ramp test, whereas this was really tough and I took a rest day the following day. Other thing I noticed was that I didn’t sett a single power PR. Not sure what to take from that.

Decided to go with 295W moving forward just for the round number. Did 3x12@92%, 3x15@92%, Clouds Rest, and Reinstein -1 this past week and felt really good. I think having done the Baseline test twice now, I think its won’t be so mentally tough in the future.

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Well 35 minutes is the absolute rock-bottom bare minimum TTE - some would even say it’s too short and should be at least 40 minutes.

So either you were riding above FTP for 35 minutes which is totally possible (and would explain why you were so wiped out the next day), and your FTP is a bit lower still, or if that really is your FTP then you should work on extending your TTE, which will likely provide the foundation required for lifting your FTP.

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Well it depends how recent the performances you failed to beat were. If you’ve got a better result for 35 or more minutes in the last few weeks, maybe go with that as your FTP. If 294 is the best you’ve done recently, then stick with that.

I did the baseline test today, after being encouraged by reading this thread and the ‘Kolie Moore wisdom’ thread and subsequently listening to a few of the podcasts. I like what I hear a lot and found the test protocol and result pretty convincing.

Very easy to make in the workout creator and the last few minutes were hard - but then it’s a test to failure so should be hard right? I think the result would be considerably lower than if I did a ramp test this week and I am encouraged by both the test and the empirical cycling FTP podcast to lower my target power and lengthen the intervals when attempting to train threshold.

The single caveat I would suggest is that it helps to have an idea of FTP before the test, so it may not be the first place to try if you don’t have a clue. Otherwise, very impressed.

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Agreed but as long as it’s a ballpark number and you ramp up you should be ok. I would advise against erg more for this and almost ignore the target and chase the feeling not a number.

I had to lower my ftp about 25 watts since switching test type. But since then I have broke almost every power pr from 2 seconds to 5 hours. So yeah I think u can get way stronger way faster with an accurate ftp

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I agree… TR doesn’t consider your TTE and I also feel it’s a critical part of fitness. yes it’s true that in a lot of the plans, they may seek to shorten the rests a few times, or add more intervals, or make the intervals longer in a progressive overload fashion. different people need to progressively overload the lengths of these intervals/rest intervals/number of intervals at different rates… progressively overload them over a longer period of time… maybe do over-unders 1x every 10-14 days but still do a little more than last time every time… but probably uniformly from a TTE perspective, TR doesn’t take enough steps up into higher echelons of interval durations… from 1 training cycle to the next, you shouldn’t be going back to the very beginning…

IE if during a training training cycle you started at 3x12’ at FTP and managed to work your way up to successfully completing 3x20’ at FTP, then during the next training block, assuming you have the same goals in mind and your test increased FTP wattage by 10%, maybe you do need to go back to doing 3x12’ at FTP… but on the other hand if your FTP only inceased 1% or stayed the same or went down, theoretically you should still be able to do 3x20’ at FTP… so start working on increasing that to 2x30’ and 3x25’ or shorter RBI etc…

I’ve done kolie moore’s FTP test outside… i really prefer it outside and there is no ERG there… not trying to argue that TTE can’t be measured using ERG inside but just want to add the dimension that doing it outside is fun too!

just to chime in here…
I’ve been coached by @empiricalcycling or a year…

I did all sorts of tests but always on different days. Never did any combination test like 4DP where you might do 2’ and 5’ tests on the same day.

but I’ve done 1’, 5’, 20’, 30’, and TTE tests. Also we did course based tests which were not about being steady but about being as fast as possible on a course that simulates the actual A-race goal.

All tests followed some sort of micro-taper protocol for the week. no more than two different tests in a week.
I was constantly looking forward to more tests, I really liked that part.

I think it’s a valid strategy to test lots of power durations…

exactly… and its more realistic to the demands of actual riding outside where ERG doesn’t exist…

NEARLY Everything everything i did in 2020 above FTP is RPE based… AND everything below tempo was RPE based as well… It only ever got specific with power targets from tempo up to FTP…

for Over FTP stuff it was all about trying to learn what a good feeling should be for a repeatable maximal effort at whatever target duration. whether it be short/shorts like 15/15’s, 30/30’s, or 1’ on with 5’ RBI…

that seems like a genius idea to me!!! might be very very tricky to decide what a good prescribed % of PB should be… someone might have had a ride with bad power meter calibration which gave them an insane 3’ wattage… While it seems genius, i must stand behind my belief that all workouts above FTP should be prescribed on RPE only and letting the cyclist monitor their power and make sure they aren’t dropping below FTP which would be a sure sign that they are over-cooking the effort.

I have done these tests outside… i like a flat road personally. I feel that inclines are dangerous because if you make it to the top of the incline before you reach your TTE, well that means you’ve probably got to go down hill and it could be impossible to maintain the power when going down hill even in 53/11. I live in iowa… I found a very large country loop where i could do nothing but turn right from one generally quiet paved road to the next with no need to take my foot off the gas. It worked great for me and i had a huge result from it! I do eat during the test and drink… I really think it’s important to eat as you normally would which is 60-90g carbs in some form that is VERY easy to consume… don’t forget plenty of extra fuel to help you ride back home after the test!

hmm yeah seems like it’s totally natural that the two topics are going to be highly intertwined with each other! could you link to the other forum thread??

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Can someone link me a progression 1 / 2 workout?

I want to test tomorrow having not done a 30 minute effort before