Well 35 minutes is the absolute rock-bottom bare minimum TTE - some would even say it’s too short and should be at least 40 minutes.
So either you were riding above FTP for 35 minutes which is totally possible (and would explain why you were so wiped out the next day), and your FTP is a bit lower still, or if that really is your FTP then you should work on extending your TTE, which will likely provide the foundation required for lifting your FTP.
Well it depends how recent the performances you failed to beat were. If you’ve got a better result for 35 or more minutes in the last few weeks, maybe go with that as your FTP. If 294 is the best you’ve done recently, then stick with that.
I did the baseline test today, after being encouraged by reading this thread and the ‘Kolie Moore wisdom’ thread and subsequently listening to a few of the podcasts. I like what I hear a lot and found the test protocol and result pretty convincing.
Very easy to make in the workout creator and the last few minutes were hard - but then it’s a test to failure so should be hard right? I think the result would be considerably lower than if I did a ramp test this week and I am encouraged by both the test and the empirical cycling FTP podcast to lower my target power and lengthen the intervals when attempting to train threshold.
The single caveat I would suggest is that it helps to have an idea of FTP before the test, so it may not be the first place to try if you don’t have a clue. Otherwise, very impressed.
Agreed but as long as it’s a ballpark number and you ramp up you should be ok. I would advise against erg more for this and almost ignore the target and chase the feeling not a number.
I had to lower my ftp about 25 watts since switching test type. But since then I have broke almost every power pr from 2 seconds to 5 hours. So yeah I think u can get way stronger way faster with an accurate ftp
I agree… TR doesn’t consider your TTE and I also feel it’s a critical part of fitness. yes it’s true that in a lot of the plans, they may seek to shorten the rests a few times, or add more intervals, or make the intervals longer in a progressive overload fashion. different people need to progressively overload the lengths of these intervals/rest intervals/number of intervals at different rates… progressively overload them over a longer period of time… maybe do over-unders 1x every 10-14 days but still do a little more than last time every time… but probably uniformly from a TTE perspective, TR doesn’t take enough steps up into higher echelons of interval durations… from 1 training cycle to the next, you shouldn’t be going back to the very beginning…
IE if during a training training cycle you started at 3x12’ at FTP and managed to work your way up to successfully completing 3x20’ at FTP, then during the next training block, assuming you have the same goals in mind and your test increased FTP wattage by 10%, maybe you do need to go back to doing 3x12’ at FTP… but on the other hand if your FTP only inceased 1% or stayed the same or went down, theoretically you should still be able to do 3x20’ at FTP… so start working on increasing that to 2x30’ and 3x25’ or shorter RBI etc…
I’ve done kolie moore’s FTP test outside… i really prefer it outside and there is no ERG there… not trying to argue that TTE can’t be measured using ERG inside but just want to add the dimension that doing it outside is fun too!
just to chime in here…
I’ve been coached by @empiricalcycling or a year…
I did all sorts of tests but always on different days. Never did any combination test like 4DP where you might do 2’ and 5’ tests on the same day.
but I’ve done 1’, 5’, 20’, 30’, and TTE tests. Also we did course based tests which were not about being steady but about being as fast as possible on a course that simulates the actual A-race goal.
All tests followed some sort of micro-taper protocol for the week. no more than two different tests in a week.
I was constantly looking forward to more tests, I really liked that part.
I think it’s a valid strategy to test lots of power durations…
exactly… and its more realistic to the demands of actual riding outside where ERG doesn’t exist…
NEARLY Everything everything i did in 2020 above FTP is RPE based… AND everything below tempo was RPE based as well… It only ever got specific with power targets from tempo up to FTP…
for Over FTP stuff it was all about trying to learn what a good feeling should be for a repeatable maximal effort at whatever target duration. whether it be short/shorts like 15/15’s, 30/30’s, or 1’ on with 5’ RBI…
that seems like a genius idea to me!!! might be very very tricky to decide what a good prescribed % of PB should be… someone might have had a ride with bad power meter calibration which gave them an insane 3’ wattage… While it seems genius, i must stand behind my belief that all workouts above FTP should be prescribed on RPE only and letting the cyclist monitor their power and make sure they aren’t dropping below FTP which would be a sure sign that they are over-cooking the effort.
I have done these tests outside… i like a flat road personally. I feel that inclines are dangerous because if you make it to the top of the incline before you reach your TTE, well that means you’ve probably got to go down hill and it could be impossible to maintain the power when going down hill even in 53/11. I live in iowa… I found a very large country loop where i could do nothing but turn right from one generally quiet paved road to the next with no need to take my foot off the gas. It worked great for me and i had a huge result from it! I do eat during the test and drink… I really think it’s important to eat as you normally would which is 60-90g carbs in some form that is VERY easy to consume… don’t forget plenty of extra fuel to help you ride back home after the test!
hmm yeah seems like it’s totally natural that the two topics are going to be highly intertwined with each other! could you link to the other forum thread??
Can someone link me a progression 1 / 2 workout?
I want to test tomorrow having not done a 30 minute effort before
You can find the workouts here:
I’m doing this test again tomorrow. Feel that I should test higher now after some consistent training these past few weeks.
I tried searching through the post Regarding testing in TT position, but I couldnt find anything. Do you TT/Tri guys test down low? I broke one of my armpad mounts so I can’t test in TT until I get it fixed 
If your goal event is a TT/Triathlon, to me it makes sense to test in that position, especially closer to the event - say starting a “Build” period in the traditional Friel macrocycles. For Base periods, I’d be interested in pushing as much power as possible as I built TTE/endurance, so I’d test as comfortably as possible.
In the past, I’ve ridden my road bike in the “offseason”, then swapped to my TT bike as spring breaks and tri season approaches. When I make that change in bikes, I’d test again.
That’s my $0.02 anyway.
Have a look on the 5th February, the 108th post. Kolie Moore gives a brief nugget on what he sees with his own athletes and road/TT bikes and why. TLDR is a 10-20W decrease in FTP and shorter TTE on the TT bike.
My guess (I don’t have TT bike btw but I like this thread) is to test on the TT bike if you intend to train on it for a significant amount of time, given his stated preference for tests to be within about 5W of what they are meant to measure and the benefit of training at the right power target.
I’m not on TP, so I can’t use workout creator (unless there’s a TR update I don’t know about). Is there any way someone could share their Kolie Moore FTP protocol workouts with me? Or let me know where to go?
They’re in Team Gold, accessible here:
Q: post-test, what to use when structuring ensuing workouts – WKO TTE or TTE test results?
Same FTP/mFTO but WKO runs shorter than actual conducted test TTE.
From the ‘what workout today’ thread I think you did 60 minutes at FTP? Is WKO within 5-10 minutes of that? I’d say its your choice, but I might go with the more conservative and then during an extensive phase extend duration during actual workouts when I’m feeling strong.
How much shorter? I’m no expert, but if you actually rode at about FTP for a certain length of time then I’m not sure why that would not be a valid measurement of TTE.
It’s doing a regression on the data. The math means that it fits under the curve instead of over. It’s generally just a minute or two under what you did.
Ahh okay, I’ve never used WKO stuff but that makes sense. I guess they would prefer that the measurements be just a bit on the conservative side.
WKO is pretty close on my long rides at threshold, for example 51 minutes at FTP and post-ride WKO updates to 47:07 TTE. Or 65 minutes at FTP and post-ride WKO updates TTE to 56:42. Really depends on the shape of your curve, and interesting things happen if a really strong short effort falls out of the 90-day window.
I didn’t think of WKO using data other than just FTP intervals to come up with that TTE number but that make sense.
It’s a difference of 20min(!).
My previous TTE test was 35min; WKO TTE ~30min; same FTP.
From TP: TTE can is visually represented by a vertical line just after the kink or decline in sustained power outputs.
Except there was no decline in power @ ~40min; there was an incline in power.
(do I have to “feed” the model more?)