This sounds like good logic to me.
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Sometimes it starts low because of big FTP jumps. And then it tracks you in faster after that.
I’m probably reveling too much, but we see that as a better “ramping period” to your new FTP.
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Interesting, thanks for the information.
As it happens my (AI FTP was 255) rampFTP was 249 and my WKO5 FTP 244 and I can do Gray off 244 as a one off, although not very productive as it takes a touch too long to recover from. About 235-240 is totally doable.
But push FTP up to 255 and the intervals need to be under 10 minutes, guess that shows what Threshold is all about, the time at steady state goes seriously up, at / slightly below and falls of a cliff above. I agree with other comments, this seems to be at odds with the TR philosophy (power first and reduce the duration).
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Agreed
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Hmmm…as said I’m more for: conservative/lower FTP and longer intervals/higher PL.
But people get obsessed with FTP and just after succeeding on 2x20 might prefer nudging FTP 3 watts and continuing again from PL 3.
To me that will result in anaerobically inflated FTPs.
Might be ok for casual rider. But if you want to perform for example >= 100km rides etc. that’s suboptimal in my eyes (Threshold/SS intervals should be 10min upwards. 5min intervals is for VO2max not SS 
).
Could not agree more.
Yes. But TR main logic tends towards new rider type. Experienced rider needs manual oversight. Which I do happily so far (after learning the hard way).
Hmmm…but don’t accumulate too much fatigue.
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Maybe we’re just some vocal / TR-passionate minority…and I know you’re a super smart guy and make your decisions on a lot of input and data which needs to consider a lot of other cases as well.
So I just wanted to say a quick thank you for engaging with us here. Even if we might not agree on each training philosophy aspect, I feel heard!
(Until the next conversation and for now have a nice weekend/forum-off-time )
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I’m not Nate, and nor can I provide you any statistics.
But you made me ponder, so I hope you don’t mind my input.
I 100% could have done it off my first AI-FTP number, even though at first glance I doubted it. Looking at my second I think the same thing, except now I think I could do it as a maximal effort.
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Amen. To me MINIMUM threshold intervals should be 9-10 mins and SS about 15min. If that’s not doable for non-beginner riders (say be training for 9-12 months) then to be FTP is too high. 2 X 20 SS (e.g. 90% FTP) should be doable without too much strain on pretty much any average training day (i.e. not totally smashed but some fatigue) so most riders who have some experience.
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Maximal is the wrong word. I think I should say, I wouldn’t want to be doing much more, I would definitely be looking forward to finishing.
Also, with the latest update you would get a workout appropriate to your plan.
That’s pretty much how 2x20 at 100% threshold should feel…not max max effort…but not fun and glad it’s over…at least that’s my experience/view
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Would you say it might fall into the “Hard” or “Very Hard” rating if everything is aligned properly (FTP, rider prep, etc.)?
Yes I would. Not all out but feel for vast majority it should be either hard or v hard. Exact one depending on fatigue on the day, motivation, caffeine etc AND experience of doing longer threshold efforts.
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OK, that was my thought too. Good day could be Hard, and off day maybe Very Hard.
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I’m a TR disciple but follow a lot of Kolie Moore’s information, I think there’s enough people suggesting TTE at FTP could be in the 35min range.
I still find it impossible to dissociate FTP from Lactate Threshold as that was what it was a proxy for when I did my Exercise Physiology degree fourteen years ago (it’s funny how much stuff is coming back around to being in Vogue while I was away from the nerdery of it all).
I am going to try the new number, I’ll re-jigger my plan to be the original SSBHV again.
I’ll give it a punt after I’ve shaken my cold and report back.
I’m not sure I see the point of threshold progression levels below 4.1 and above 7?
It seems like the workouts within this range are the ones that most would agree are the traditional threshold workouts based on %FTP so why not just set the athletes FTP so that they always inside that range?
I.e. after every FTP update an athletes progression level should be between say 4 and 5 and if they get above 7 they should retest or receive a new AI FTP.
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So this thread is getting into an important topic that affects me that I think hasn’t really been addressed that thoroughly yet - ties back to the TR vs. Kolie Moore mindset and even PLs vs. FTP itself:
What to do when FTP Detection (like a ramp test) gives a higher value that you cannot sustain for even 30 mins - and then bumps you way down in PL? Is this really preferable to keeping a “true” FTP and pushing to higher PLs?
@Nate_Pearson briefly touched on this at points above, saying that if experienced, near personal ceiling, or long TTer, you should err towards long PL. I haven’t seen as much comment from @ambermalika on this subject yet after skimming the 970 posts so far. So I’d really like to understand the TR thinking on this a bit more.
Here’s the thing - while I’d say I have a few years experience, sometimes disciplined, not always, I’m still not sure if I found my threshold “genetic potential” - that’s why I’m here 
Esp. because threshold generally remains my weakest PL vs. other power zones, once I work them all.
I also regularly question if I’m working hard enough in the right way because as I regain fitness, I find it hard to get even within 10BPM of my max HR - yet my legs just hit their limit. Suggests muscular endurance is a limiter - yet long SS isn’t a problem - at least when operating at what I think my “real FTP” is.
Past two years I did a lot more long long SS work which was fantastic for TTE and repeatability (thanks outdoor workouts + old TR HV plan w/a conservative FTP!) - even anaerobic tank seems to last longer - but peak threshold is still pretty stagnant.
So, my current personal scenario - AI FTP detection says go up 5% 245->257. I know it’s too high to be a “real” FTP - it’s identical to my best 20 min power this season, done about 4 weeks ago w/a lot of easier Z2/3 work since. That best effort was also not a true FTP test - minimal anaerobic clearing ahead of it, out of the saddle surges and didn’t deduct 5% for 20 mins. Also, based on a 4x6 min VO2 workout this week in the 280 range, I know I cannot do 257+5%+prior clearing effort + steady in saddle for a legit 20 min FTP test to give 257W.
On the other hand, I’ve been hitting many workout intervals over target lately and seeing regular PRs coming back from a serious crash - so from that perspective, it is correctly insightful that I’m probably a tad low on where I have it set. But I’d guess 250 is the max “real” FTP I could do right now.
Of course now the new PL/AT system compensates that by serving shorter threshold/SS efforts after you bump it up, avoiding the crash and burn in the old system with too high a FTP. So now the real question is - **if experienced, decent TTE/PLs, and maybe near a threshold ceiling - but not really sure - which approach does TR believe will give us workouts most likely to raise the “real FTP” threshold and take us closer to our genetic potential? (put another way, assume we could care less about having a higher ramp/AI/vanity FTP when on the road or Strava - we want legit threshold power 
!) Will shifting to shorter threshold/VO2 intervals at higher intensity really be better?
I’m still totally unconvinced on which approach. I’m giving the detection/ramp test approach another shot to mix things up - but I’d like to hear more on this subject from the TR team because it’s going to be a really common question/issue for people trying to decide where to park FTP vs. PLs - esp. as the detected FTP further nudges us to those lower PLs.
Reference - PLs before 5% FTP detection increase:
After:
(as an aside - seems odd that tempo and threshold dropped a lot, but SS zone in between them did not?)
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A follow-up first result for what it’s worth -
After accepting the +12W FTP recommendation, threshold PL lowered to 2.3 PL. A 3.0 was the hardest that was still “productive” - as written, it still would have been too easy, so I pushed over targets and following this, next workout is adapted to 4.0 and looks a bit more challenging with 3 sets of 4x12 min o/u. Still not too intimidating as durations are still only 12 mins, only 3 sets, with most of it at 90%, but good direction and happy to see it move that far after one ride. Pushing above the new higher targets today also got HR up higher as well.
Still, the hard question here is whether this approach will translate to being faster vs suffering through something like 4 sets of 16 min o/u at old FTP higher up the PL tree… will be a few weeks to figure that out I guess. In any case, the variety will be fun.
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I’ve got a ramp test scheduled tomorrow so did the FTP detection and it’s given me a value that scares me. I feel like I’m just about holding on during my workouts with the value FTP detection gave me 14 days ago and apparently I have added another 2.6% since then 
I realise that the idea is that my progression levels will drop but I’m going to actually do the ramp test now… for science.
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