Yes, I guess this is as much training philosophy as anything though.
Itâs setting FTP above Lactate Threshold and trying to train up to/into it.
I would guess, based on this, that itâs performing as expected (well if PLâs had dropped). I just think a bit more conservativeness in the FTP setting would help. But I am someone who seems to have a particularly steep drop off above FTP.
My PLâs just dropped - Threshold 4.9 - Iâm going to commit to the experience. Wish me luck!
Dude, you did one productive workout that you passed. Then you did a stretch workout and you had issues at the very end of interval 2 of 3.
If you go through the progressions faster than what we prescribe and have issues, I donât think you should attribute that to AI FTP Detection or Adaptive Training.
Yes I can because that is not my FTP its way over, what you call a stretch workout is extremely easy (edit sorry I meant achievable) based on my actual FTP.
I understand you point but you donât understand my history⌠it doesnât matter anyway, I have deleted the AI FTP and will stick to the suggested workouts of a realistic FTP / training level.
I think Iâm confused about whatâs going on. Hereâs what I see:
Is this the current state? Whatâs the FTP we gave you and what do you think your FTP is?
No it is way ABOVE my FTP real FTP.
Now you comment makes more sense as you may have misunderstood my point.
I find this is slightly insulting and disrespectful, I thought I had explained the situation. I understand defeating your product, I was just saying I donât think it gave a realistic number for me, even we using AT to iron out any issues.
But if itâs above your FTP, why did you attempt a stretch workout, then use that as proof that the system doesnât work?
Can you explain this comment more?
If this workout is extremely easy based on your actual FTP, then why couldnât you finish it?
Oh wait, I think I know what might be going on.
Youâre thinking all in terms of percentage of FTP. Based on your criticism youâre very focused on that aspect.
With the Progression Levels, you can kinda forget all that. Because weâll adjust you based on the work you can do to get the appropriate wattage for you.
This is what some people have talked about as âroomâ within progression levels.
So we can give you wattages that are below/above what your âFTPâ is on TR and still get you to the appropriate place.
IE at your lower FTP you might be doing a level 6 threshold workout, but at your higher FTP weâve got you at 2.1. You might be effectively doing the exact same workout in terms of wattage.
So you could be doing 95% of a higher FTP rather than 100% of a lower FTP. You might think that âI wonât get faster this wayâ but they might be the exact same wattage which is the important part.
I think a better way to think of this is that âAT adjust to the intervals I can repeatedly do in trainingâ and just worry about the wattage and not the percentages.
This is why you said, âwhat you call a stretch workout is extremely easy based on my actual FTPâ. Youâre looking at it as a percent rather than wattage, which is what youâre actually doing. So in fact, they are completely different workouts.
Because if the AI FTP was representative of my actual FTP this would be a bread and butter session.
And to be fair I didnât notice it was a stretch workout. So should I do Threshold sessions with the AI FTP that have 6 - 12 minutes time in Zone when based on my actual FTP I can do 30 minutes plus? I know which one I think is more productive. Having an over inflated FTP is never good in any circumstances IMO.
Totally dfferent question:
Letâs say you have PL around 1-2 (after having raised FTP or whatever)âŚthen fail every workoutâŚas then AI canât set PL any lowerâŚis it responsibility of the athlete to test or lower FTP (which I think should be) or is there TR fallback mechanism (popup, FTP downgrade, or Threshold become SS sessions, âŚ)?
Does that scenario even occur in your data? (Probably super edge caseâŚ)
So this statement confirms for me that youâre looking it in terms of percent of FTP rather than raw wattage. I think thatâs where the disconnect is.
Weâve talked about this but I donât think anything is built in yet. And I donât know how often it happens, but it could totally happen.
If thereâs no room (up or down), we need to prompt the athlete and adjust. This is true no matter how they get their FTP.
Because I was using AI FTP as an experiment, not my actual FTP, based on my FTP I would have finished it, even slightly fatigued.
Maybe I wanted +10watts (+2.4%) to be true but given it was only two weeks after a ramp test I knew it wasnât. I knew people would say âwell how do you know, give it a goâ I did, any I was right, I know my body very well, been doing this for 15 years, and was intrigued to see if AI could understand and work for me. Maybe it can but AI FTP not so at the moment.
Can you link me to where you gave it a go? It looks like youâve been training at 249 for a while and finishing workouts. AI FTP gave you 255, which would have lowered your levels to make the next workout pretty progressive from your 249 current FTP (IE it would have been a small step up in wattage).
But I donât see where youâve attempted a workout at 255.
Looking from outside⌠Many use for example 2x20 threshold as kind of bread and butter that should be achievable on any âcorrect FTPâ and that you should not be needed to build into that FTP by doing 5x6min and so on⌠I speculate thatâs @Bbt67 point.
It then becomes more training philosophical debate I commented about here:
Iâm all for longer intervals but TR is more on the other side of the table (and I can think of reasons why soâŚeven if itâs not my personal choice):
So thatâs a 5.9 level workout.
Based on an FTP of 249 and a threshold PL of 2.4, youâd have to lower your threshold to 233ish to complete this workout.
This isnât exact but I think itâs pretty close.
Yah, I think weâre going to work on making it so we can insert or keep some people at higher ranges of the levels.
Itâs going to be a mix of rider history and goals.
I would prefer to take this off the forum but happy to share the conclusion.
I did Saddle Mountain VO2max 4.4 on 255ftp
and failed Wheel -3 PL 3.5 on 255ftp but my point is that is 3x 9â ouâs off a realistic FTP⌠that should be do-able any day of the week, and looking at 3.1 / 2.9 level Iâd still fail them as the main difference is lower valley or less time for the session which really doesnât make them any easily, it is the work intervals that are the issue.
To expand on thisâŚ
There are a LOT more detail in this, but my general thought is:
New rider with lots of FTP growth room = Keep pushing up FTP and higher wattages
Experienced rider whoâs closer to their FTP ceiling = Extend the TIZ and push it out.
And thenâŚ
If youâre in the specialty phase, always push to the higher levels.
These are like fine-tuning things but it would be a nice enhancement.
YesâŚthatâs what I would call the âTR intensity dilemmaâ. Iâd never set my FTP to 249 if that workout would not seem doable nearly every day.
Starting at threshold PL 2.x seems wrong to me personally.
Building into that FTP doesnât seem productive training to me. But I use TR self coached happily 
