You can follow a plan successfully but be in a hole by the end of it
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I view it differently. If the ride is a success then data of success or failure should be sufficient. I donāt need my perception that work stress that day impacted how I felt riding.
But so far they indicated they are not factoring in telling you when to rest.
I think some of us are just particularly bad at RPE. I donāt think Iāve ever done more than a handful of āeasyā rides because frankly, sitting on the trainer at any power level feels unpleasant to me. I did Petit yesterday and that felt almost hard because of the form sprints even though the power levels were trivial to hit.
I am envious of anyone able to quantify their discomfort levels to any meaningful degree of accuracy. The only one I really understand is āall outā, but thatās only by virtue of being on the cusp of either wanting to die, or having to work out ways to survive the intervals (or indeed, not getting through them properly).
There are situations where the data look perfectly fine but one would feel awful, so survey data just adds an additional measure that sometimes HR/pwr alone canāt measure.
Additionally, there is value in the likert scale stuff in health sciences. I donāt have a citation, just something I remember, but individuals reporting fair to poor on their health perception were more likely to have adverse outcomes compared to people self reporting better health. So there is value in the self reported stuff
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Something else to consider if you were to go strickly off data. Recently I dug myself into a hole by piling on too many VO2 TR workouts plus high intensity track workouts (running) and too much milage. I got to a point were my heart rate wasnāt responding. Week after week I was still hitting workouts but it got to a point where even a 3km easy recovery run felt miserable. The only metric telling me something was wrong was my percieved effort. When a 3km recovery run (even at a pace much slower than my typical recovery run) with a low heart rate felt like an all out effort at high elevation I determined something was wrong and it was time to back off. But if a machine was looking at that it could have assumed everything was fineā¦successfully completed workout with low heart rateā¦SUPER PASS!!!
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You describe myself perfectly.
I dont do well with RPE. I really dont feel pain that others describe when they ride. As an example- I dont feel a burn in the legs. When I fail its the muscles unable to work anymore.
Again, it is an added measure. The data of the workout is used in conjunction with the survey to adjust the training. And while you say weāre talking data and not a coach, thatās not the point of AT. AT is being designed to be like a coach for picking workouts, so they are giving it the data you would give to a coach after each session, and that includes perceived effort.
Note as well that Nate mentioned there are hundreds of ML features at work reviewing each workout. Subjective surveys are only part of that. The raw data makes up the bulk most likely.
As for progression, static plans arenāt affective for everybody. Perhaps youāre right in the middle of the curve and they all work for you, but there are hundreds if not thousands of users who do not share that experience, myself being one of them. Having the surveys means the progression for VO2 can finally actually meet my abilities where they are rather than making me reach far beyond my capabilities every workout because the static progression is too intense for me to complete. That feeling is demoralizing, but AT has made VO2 something possible for me to comeplete in my plans now.
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Thanks 
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I think we just value RPE differently. I would rather use a measureable data source ie heart rate the RPE.
I am far from a typical user. I started in my late 50s unable to do anything for 30 years. Surgery resolving my chronic disease and cycling changed my life. I had no muscle stamina. Three years of riding to progress up to an hour ride without being broken the next day was a challenge. Two years of physio to help me is what it took to actually be able to ride without getting physically beat up. Immunosuppressive medication likely doesnt help much either. Far from typical. I found the TR plans too intense but I can do them now but they all need tweaking for me to deal with recovery.
As you describe VO2 progressionā¦I had the same issue.
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I set an outside workout, but was unable to sync my Bolt to load the workout for some reason. I just did a regular ride, and TR seems to have associated the planned workout and my ride even though I didnāt run the workout via the Bolt.
And again, a nature break along with some pictures and a headset adjustment, lead to a āStruggleā survey. Iām still annoyed with that, but maybe that is just part of the outside connection? I donāt know what if any option we have to actually get good & positive results from an outside ride?
Besides that, when selecting āOtherā and adding my note, that works as expected. The issue I see is that the info recorded in that comment section may become invisible long term.
Right now, I can only see anything more than āOtherā when I open and edit the survey response. This option disappears in a week. I wonder if or how I will be able to see this or any similar note in the future?
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So if Iām just following a Base, Build, Specialised phase Iām not going to get any adaptations to workoutās on AT unless I specifically set a goal for later in the year using the Plan Builder?
I wasnāt aware of this and am just finishing up Sweetspot Base HV II and wondered why I had no alterations to workouts over the last two weeks since I was given access to AT.
Starting Build next week so will be good to have this confirmed.
You donāt have to place a goal on the calendar to use Plan Builder. You can just let it apply a plan from your desired start date and set and end date for your training, all that without an event on the calendar.
It may be best to delete your current plans, run PB and set the start date as the same as when you started your current SSB1. Doing this should allow you to have the typical Base, Build & Specialty progression, like you have right now.
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Then the subjective feedback of āthis is too intenseā is crucial in giving you a workout that fits your abilities but still elicits the response youāre looking for. Thatās why these surveys are helpful. You even note you tweak things to deal with recovery. Thatās exactly what AT is looking to do as well through the use of those survey responses. So in reality, you already are doing the same thing as those surveys to give yourself more appropriate work that makes the next workout doable. To make sure AT can do the same, you have to provide it that data point.
Thanks for this.
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What prompts you to have an easy day then?
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Overall fatigue level. When I notice that the energy level isnt quite there. So three weeks of build is too much for me. I know that from prior experience. Legs feel sluggish and the third week may have a ride that fails. Stick in four days of a break with easier rides ie Baxter then go do the workout I failedā¦and I will be back onto the plan.
But the ride that failed is the feedback. You dont need an RPE to say too intense I couldnt finish or too intense I had to dial it back. The data shows I couldnt do it as prescribed.
I really think we are saying the same thing. I just say its in the data and the RPE is additional data that doesnt add to my success or failure.
Just to further clarify, there are three different surveys you could be served, and only when you pass do you get the RPE survey. The others have more nuanced response options. Workouts are classified based on raw data as a Super Pass, Pass, Struggle Pass, Failure, and Cut Short. Once classified on that data, you are provided one of the following surveys. So to your point, it is taking a black and white approach at the start but is seeking additional info to recognize additional patterns.
- If you succeeded in the workout, you get the 1-5 scale survey asking how hard it was.
- If you complete the workout but drop the power, skip intervals, take long rests, etc., it will have a survey with different response options asking for why you think you struggled. This could be because you did it before breakfast and didnāt feel fueled, or you did it during the work day and couldnāt focus due to heightened stress, or because you got poor sleep the night before.
- If you do not complete the workout and pull the plug. This also has different response options because a blown tire on your outside workout ending it early is wayyy different than pulling the plug because it was too intense.
Hopefully that gives some additional clarity. As I mentioned in a comment a ways up, you can listen to Nateās explanation and the teamās intent behind the surveys. Nate does a way better job of explaining it and youāll be able to see what items are listed in each survey:
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Maybe you wouldnāt need to get to this feeling before easing back a bit then if you allowed AT to modify your workouts which precede this (enforced?) break.
Sounds like youāve convinced yourself AT isnāt for you anyway which is fine.
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