Harsh Reality - You OVER test on FTPs (support group)

Hi,

I am glad I found out his thread, I thought I was the only one struggling with the ramp test results. 1.5 year of training with TR and consistent overreaching in the mid-end of any block (mainly mental, tired of the sweet spot intervals crushing me day after day). With more or less no increase in ftp. If you do something and it is not working, you should change something. So I fought my ego (this guy is tough, I can tell you) and just dialed down the ftp value in TR. And the magic happened. Challenging WOs, but good recovery (given I am properly feeding and sleeping, which tells me I am still working hard). Since then, consistent ftp increase from block to block. I am still using the ramp test, but with experience I can now pinpoint the exact ramp step where I go from below to above threshold. Of course difference between steps can be huge (15 watts), but I aim in the middle. Eventually adjusting one point or 2 up or down depending on the first workouts. What I thought was sweetspot before was in fact threshold. Attacking base 1 with 3 threshold sessions a week is tough :smiley: Now sweetspot feels like sweetspot. Hard work, but manageable. And I could do it all year long without mental failure.

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I have to do this tomorrow morning. I am struggling on my current Sweetspot. Life duties are taking priority and also I am riding with work colleagues for fun. This is once a week and screws the structure. Tomorrow will be decision if I test again in the middle of the plan

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I too was a victim of overtesting on Ramp Test (every time). I was able to complete SSBLV with added endurance workouts, but just barely. On SS rides I was often reaching HR well above my threshold - sometimes as high as 95% of HRmax during SS intervals - I was actually doing threshold not SS. I discovered after the fact, that in order to stay close to my threshold HR at SS workouts I had to multiply last minute power of FTP test by 0.73 instead of 0.75 and it made a world of difference - now workouts are challenging, but I can do them and recover well before next hard one.
After SSB I couldn’t do a single workout at a new threshold at GB build phase - and it got me really discouraged and demotivated, it took 3 weeks of easy riding before I was able to go back to structure with a new motivation and adjusted FTP…

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I reduce my ramp test result by 5%.

And then I replace the TR “sweetspot” workouts (many of the workouts in low volume SSBII and SPB are more like threshold workouts) with my own SS progression. Longer intervals (20+ minutes) at lower intensity (85-90%).

This approach has worked well for me.

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Sounds about right. Being new to training, I have always thought sweet spot training is really hard, often leaving me to so spent and fatigued. Others I know feel the same “Trainer Road is really hard!”
I never tried to do anything special for my FTP tests (before the ramp test was introduced), just pushed hard. So I ended up moving away from Trainer Road’s training plans.

Looking back now, I think the problem is the FTP testing that Trainer Road uses gives you a ridiculous number that makes sweet spot training, threshold training. Like other platforms, Trainer Road needs a few different tests to conclude accurate numbers (vo2max, FTP etc) to then more accurately set intensity.

My 2 cents anyway.

Sounds like a great idea. Only issue is new users wouldn’t know to do this.

So not fully agree, ramp test gives you too high, too low (my case) or accurate FTP. It all depends of your muscles type, training type and strengths.

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Yes exactly. This process needs to be improved (3 test system like Sufferfest?) to keep users on the platform. My thoughts.

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Like:

  1. Ramp Test
  2. 1x 20m FTP
  3. 2x 8m FTP

:wink:

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No, the ramp test is a simplified protocol that fits most, it fits more people then people think. For the purpose of aligning the TR workout. But snow flakes like to be special. Then there are a few non snow flakes it does not fit because they train single sided (non-balanced).
And a few it maybe doesn’t work well enough for, which I believe this tread was about.

To assess FTP for the sake of wand comparison it may be lacking.

Sure. My argument is you can’t get all the data you need about someone’s physiology in 1 test in order to prescribe intensity for all ranges of workouts.

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I’m 56 yrs old and the TR Ramp test seems to overpredict the FTP value I can use to set TR workouts with. I can do first 1-2 workouts of SSBII low (maxing out HR ) then I fall apart on next workout very early. Really hard to accept that the FTP from the ramp test was too high. Right now I’m doing 93% and just able to complete workouts. I have 3 weeks to go of SSBII low vol, including recovery week. I have been sore the day after every workout. Hoping to make it through the plan. Wish me luck or offer advice. Either appreciated.

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First, listen to your body. If it’s too damn hard, turn the intensity down. And make sure you turn the intensity down enough! Burying yourself for the sake of “doing the work” leads only to injury, overtraining, and misery… don’t go there.

How much intensity is enough? If you’re doing them at 93% and just barely able to complete them, the intensity is still too high: try 90% or 88%. At the end, you should feel like you worked hard. You should feel tired. But after a good recovery drink (I’m a sucker for the Skratch chocolate and horchata recovery drink mixes) and a few minutes rest, you should feel fine. Doesn’t sound like that’s how you feel.

You can turn down each workout to your appropriate level (say, 88%) to see if you can gradually bring it back up as the weeks go on. But I don’t advise that: the plans assume you’re getting better, fitter, and stronger, so they throw more at you in later weeks. If you can do the work well at 88% this week, I suggest you simply reduce your FTP by roughly that same 12% and go merrily on your way.

After your next FTP test, try reducing your newly-earned FTP by only 10% to see if your prior issues were primarily due to just not being in good-enough shape. But you may also find that the ramp test always overestimates your capability, perhaps because you’re anaerobically very strong and can hang on “too long” at the end. If so, then for the future you can:

  1. Use the ramp test, and know that – for you – the right answer is 12% (or whatever) below what it gives you. So you get a result, and then adjust it.

  2. Or switch to another FTP testing method, like the 8-minute test or 20-minute test. Many people like those better.

Like you, I get values from the ramp test that are too high: but I really like the ramp test because I don’t have to pace myself, or guess, or estimate anything. I ride until I can’t, and that’s it: simple. So I’m quite happy to continue using the ramp test and simply snip a few percent off the value it gives me. Your choice, though.

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As an update, my most recent FTP test was 245w and I can handle the workouts. The sweet spot workouts kick my butt, but I can finish them and am able to do the subsequent workouts. So, reduce FTP when you need to. It will work out well later.

UPDATE: I began this thread 2 years ago over ramp test results frustration. Fast forward 2 years and having done many more Ramp Tests, I learned to not go super deep and eke out every last second spinning at lower and lower rpms. Now, during ramp test I put in an honest hard effort but then choose to stop when I feel like the Ramp Test is getting unrealistic. This is likely somewhere 30 +/- seconds before ultimate failure. I know this feeling pretty good now and it puts me at a challenging but doable FTP. I’m now completing all my SSB high volume workouts where in previous years I was failing certain workouts in SSB mid volume.

I guess this comes down to knowing your body and learning how to train yourself. Having 2 more years of experience has taught me invaluable lessons.

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Sounds much more pleasant than going until death, and then reducing a few more % :grinning:

I don’t use ramp tests anymore, but it’s taken me about a year to separate what I think my FTP should be - being glued to the watts on-screen and learning to feel your FTP.

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Best of both worlds: a more reasonable FTP number and less chance of vomiting into your fan.

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Good points. It’s very easy to get hung up over following the process to a T, but at the end of the day, the formula used to generate an FTP value from the test is somewhat arbitrary. Taking 75% of your 1-minute power is just the top of the bell curve. I’ve found that my number ends up being 73%. Really the test is just about getting you into the right neighborhood.

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I seem to have the opposite problem with the ramp test. I set the watts after 10 higher to do my workouts and only have trouble with the Vo2 max workouts. Also I never seem to have an increase in my FTP. However, I am 71 so getting a higher FTP is tougher.

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Very helpful. Was doing first week of SPB II after a Ramp test this week and found that for my first two workouts after the Ramp test I was unable to complete last interval. I had it at 93%. Darn. I’ll have to readjust levels. I too have stopped going so very deep when I do Ramp.