I usually skip past the podcast banter, anecdotes and bro talk. I’m sure others like it. Me, I’d rather have Chad or Amber (when applicable) do deep dives on the training science. I also like the quick answers to the rapid fire questions. For me, it goes off the rails when a 10 minute Chad deep dive turns into a 25 minute segment because of all the back and forth n=1 anecdotes.
But I realize that that is what I like so it’s not a criticism. From other meta topics we know that some people love the banter and chit chat. And some people love it when the podcast is 2h+.
Well. This video describes my experience PRECISELY.
1st year - I got burned out after 4-5 months - had to abandon build phase. Still got some 1st-year gains, so didn’t worry about it too much.
2nd year? It was a shit show. Couldn’t finish “sweet spot” medium. My FTP kept going down for many months, and I felt increasingly exhausted. The last drop was when I re-started base plan, and failed during 3rd workout (the first “real” workout, after ramp test and recovery ride).
I still use TR to execute workouts (for some reason, I enjoy it more than zwift). But TR plans? Hell no, I build them myself, and they work way better for me. So, yeah, I am one of those people for whom Sweet Spot/Threshold training is not even a viable option - and TR plans are mostly that. I’ll admit though, my muscle fiber composition is probably quite different from typical/average, as there is some data to prove it.
Nate thanks for this. I think it’s fairly obvious that, at least from an outsiders perspective, you come across as someone who values your staff as people and would not knowingly put people down.
I’ve worked with multiple people previously who DO berate staff, and belittle them as people. Some of them have the capacity to turn it off and act professionally when they need to. None of them, in my experience, have had the capacity to even FAKE empathy for other humans. I think the fact you at least make an effort to understand and respect your staff speaks volumes.
Pretty impressive and self aware comment. I was always curious about how this banter was going over. I know you are friends and have good rapport / culture, but with the power imbalance I sometimes cringed slightly thinking how this could be taken.
As someone who loves the banter, I have wondered this and love your response. This may sound strange, but the podcast themes go far beyond cycling to me. I really feel like listening to Amber, you, and everyone else discuss self efficacy and facing criticism make me a better person and a better parent. Perhaps this is why there are so many devoted listeners! I am really looking forward to the podcast episode discussing the Dylan video not just to see the conversation grow on the sweet spot/rest discussion, but also to see an example of how to beneficially respond to and grow from critical feedback.
I may be in the minority, but I love the back and forths about who will win Cape Epic!
How well did you find your RPE end HR correspond with the intended intensity of the workouts? My impression from reading countless forum posts, is that a lot of us, are working with too high FTPs. FTPs we could not hold for longer than 20-30min.
Effectively making Sweetspot workouts Threshold, Threshold workouts to be supra threshold and so on.
You guys should invite Dylan Johnson on the podcast. You’ll hash it out and then probably agree more than you disagree and then sing Kumbaya at the end.
It will be the YouTube cyclist sensation of the year and then we’ll have another long topic about how you guys all planed this out from the start.
I did something even more simplistic (Thresh + VO2) and it made me faster than when I was doing TR.
Then there’s Coggan (I think it was him)* who did the same single (one; 1) workout for months and months on end.
Won’t know until you try. But so many won’t try, because they’ve paid their bux and now they have to believe. TR has all their eggs in a single basket, so they gotta defend their product; their customers are giving TR eggs every month, so they gotta defend their decision…it’s more a matter of psychology than physiology, really.
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As for Coggan, just thought I’d throw out some quotes:
For many cyclists training a moderate number of hours (i.e., ~15) per week, 3 quality sessions (intervals, races) per week is pretty common.
When I was young, I could handle 5 quality sessions per week, but only as long as I really pounded down lots of carbohydrates.
Yup, lots of ways to skin the training cat. That’s why I think those who believe that there is only “one true way” are wrong.
rando cyclist: multiple 20 min intervals at 100% FTP, i would be so dead after maybe 1-1.5 of these
AC: If you simply physically can’t do more, then yes, you’re overestimating your FTP.
*yes, it was him:
A couple of years ago, I employed a UniModal^tm training program to build up my fitness prior to a training camp. Every single workout (95% of which were indoors for 1 h) was done at level 3 [76-90% FTP]. It was, as you would expect, quite effective, with my FTP ending up in exactly the same place as when I follow the 2 x 20 min @ level 4 2x/wk approach.
So that’s gotta be a good bump for TR, right?
Also rando cyclist from the same thread:
Maybe I’m mentally lazy, but after reading all this I’ll just stick with paying TrainerRoad $10 per month and letting them tell me what to do.
Wonder how that worked out?
:
In closing, I present a great article/podcast ft. Tim Cusick (WKO master and coach of World Champion Amber Neben – so he must be right, right?). Enjoy!
Nate I personally love the banter on the podcast- it’s always great when I can laugh out loud in the middle of an interval (AACC is my go-to listen during long SS intervals and long-run especially!). So long as everyone on the podcast feels comfortable, don’t change- it’s such an awesome format to mix banter in with 30 min deep dives!
I also love you anecdotes on business and management in addition to the cycling- last week’s discussion on radical candor was fantastic (and I wish was practiced where I work). I admire your leadership and try to take queues in my own personal and professional life that you share (on the podcast and instagram). This self-awareness is fantastic and something that more leaders need to take note of.
Keep doing your thing- your ecosystem of the podcast, forum, blog, calendar, plans, etc. is 2nd to none especially at the price point offered!
I could see this easily going down to a shouting match - after all, if someone publicly “cancels” your baby, it’s hard to not to get riled up.
But for the same reason Nate doesn’ t want to sell TR merchandise - the mission is for TR to get cyclists faster, so what can TR learn from DJ’s comments to get us faster? I’d say spend less time fighting or responding to DJ’s comments. With an open mind, spend more time on looking into what he’s saying, see if there is merit, and see if the plans could be improved.
If the conclusion is that TR needs to add or modify a plan, I think that TR will only get better in its mission to make us faster.
If you guys get DJ on a podcast and have a cordial discussion, now that’ll be a marketing bonanza!
Maybe I misunderstand what you’re saying, but to me it sounds like you’re doing the same intervals in December as you are in June.
If I tried to do a workout from the crit specialty plan during my base phase, I’d surely fail. You can’t be at peak fitness all year, and hitting hard V02 intervals in November (even if you only do it twice a week and have plenty of recovery between- which is an argument I’m aware of) doesn’t leave you anywhere to go.
I don’t think DJ really made any arguments which warranted this level of outrage. He didn’t say the TR plans are ineffective, he just showed that in the study he referenced, they were not AS effective as an alternative approach. He said people reached out to him regarding burnout and fatigue, there are countless threads here about exactly this same problem. He didn’t bash or disparage Nate or Chad or anyone and said at the start that he isn’t trying to “steal business” and I also saw no attempts at that. DJ is not one of those youtubers who sells merch and constantly puts out sponsored content, and his “I think I’m getting fatigued just thinking about the HV plan” is just a joke, if you watched more of his videos that’s just his sense of humor
The responses from some people here were way more toxic than his thumbnail for the video or anything that was said. I’m looking forward to the response from the crew and I’m sure it will be more professional and fact filled than the nonsense being spewed here by the people who have the most posts
I’m sure if we had a thread here dedicated to his video critique of Zwift plans, people would be singing a totally different tune.
I know it’s headed off topic, but you’ve addressed it so I guess it’s fair game. But the lighthearted banter style of the podcast is the reason I can listen to it. If it was a few guys dryly discussing cycle training week in week out I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t tune in during my longer workouts. Instead it feels like you’re down the pub having a chat with mates about cycling, which during this lockdown feels pretty invaluable to be honest.
Lastly, why it feels like anyones place to comment on Nate’s leadership style from some back and forths on a podcast is pretty baffling to me.
I knew how SS and Threshold were supposed to feel like - and so they did. When I was well-rested, I could push through any workout…but ever-present intensity got me. Here is how it felt: you start a workout, first few intervals are exactly what you expect them to be…and then, suddenly, you feel exhausted to such a degree you can’t finish your interval even if you reduce intensity by 20%. And this breaking point was happening earlier and earlier, with every passing week.
So, here you go. SS intervals felt like SS, and VO2Max felt like VO2Max, and so on. In that case, if you reduce your FTP to make TR plans more bearable, you are basically getting rid of intended intensity, by replacing SS with Tempo, Threshold with SS, and so on. And then you can ask yourself - why are you even trying to stick with such a zombie plan, instead of designing one by yourself, for yourself?
I don’t know you and I really dont care if you leave or not but I wanted to address the First Amendment Right thing since this is a typical response when somebody gets called out about being “toxic” or saying something inapropriate.
The First Amendment Right does not give you the right to say whatever you want whenever you want without facing consequences for your comment. For example, you can’t yell “Bomb” inside an airplane and expect that there wont be consequences.
This forum has rules just like society has rules. You chose to be part of society and of this forum and therefore must respect their rules. You are welcome to go to the middle of nowhere and shout whatever you want without consequences. You are also welcome to your own opinion…regardless of it being right… or toxic… or inappropriate. That said, you are not welcome to have a toxic inappropriate opinion and spread it out in this forum. We do not attack people in the forum. We attack ideas.
FYI… this is not against you… its against the use of the First Amendment as an excuse to say whatever youw ant about whoever you want wherever you want… that is not how society works.
Again… zero to do with the topic on hand… just like Nates leadership or the podcast.
Dylan just posted a 7hr ride on Strava. He did 9x37min @ just over 300 watts. I don’t know his FTP, but I’m willing to bet these were at sweetspot/tempo. Very interesting.
Maybe I missed in the thread (it wouldn’t be hard) but where was DJ attacked? I saw a lot of people questioning his motives, his interpretation of the research, his qualifications, but I do not remember seeing anyone attacking him personally?
I’m not an American, and I must admit sometimes references to the constitution/amendments leave me confused on several levels. But I will heartily support anyone’s right to a reasoned debate and to have a different opinion. I’m no fan of the thought police and find some aspects of current cultural discourse rather difficult to fathom. BUT it needs to remain civil and constructive, and therein lies the key point…
