AT: Easy vs Moderate vs Hard vs ... [Pass / Success Survey Responses]

Everyone is different and I think as long as you follow the general guidelines and are consistent with how you rate workouts then all good. Personally if I need mini breaks and back pedals to get through it…All out. If I manage it without mini breaks/back pedals but feel dead- very hard. If finish, glad it over but never doubted would finish - hard. If felt fairly easy - moderate. Easy is reserved for stuff like lazy mountain and maybe petit type stuff (although that can also be moderate if fatigued)

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I don’t feel that I failed due to effort, I feel a failed because it was harder outside. I think I could have completed it inside. If I fill in the survey as a fail I wonder what the AI will do with that result.

Same PM inside and out?

Definitely adds a complication if someone has different abilities inside and out.

Wattbike Atom v1 inside, Assioma’s left only outside

Love the discussion here, lots of great info.

100% clear on all from Easy - Very Hard. Rock solid definitions from TR, easy to decide accurately.

0% clear on Very Hard vs All Out

Current on website:

"VH: This ride was very difficult to complete. This ride tested you. If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it.

AO: This ride was extremely difficult. It pushed me well beyond my abilities and took a massive amount of energy and focus to complete. You’ll feel like you barely made it to the end of this ride, and that you had to pull out every mental trick in the book to finish."

If I truly wouldn’t have been able to complete even one more interval, wasn’t that AO ? Using all the mental tricks, all my magic backup gas, treating it like a race, quote “If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it”.

Isn’t that AO…like…by definition?

It’s in the definition of AO that you did complete it. So, without bailouts like decreasing difficulty, back peddling, etc.

Or is the definition a bit incorrect, and it is this simple: AO only applies if you failed or used a bailout to complete.

Or no, you still finish, but there’s some status between literally not being able to do one more interval, and actually failing the current interval [which could be 30s, 10s, etc] ?

If yes, what is that status? How do we know / what is measurable about it ?

Also, we’re all talking about, quote, “one more interval”, as circled below in blue, right? Not an entire block?

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Thank you!!!

  • There were two mentions on the podcast from Jonathan, where he says that use of Bailouts (pause, back pedal, larger Workout Intensity reductions, etc.) are a clear All Out marker. One was last week and not sure on the one prior, but he’s covered that detail twice now.

Per those specific podcast comments, I have asked for some form of that info to be added into the official support article. It’s not been done from what I can tell.

I do find it funny though. Because there must be some trigger point with Bailouts where they trigger a Struggle survey by default vs using All Out which seems to give the same Struggle survey. My question is how fine or where is the line between a default Struggle survey vs TR still giving you the regular survey and an All Out leading to the Struggle as a follow up?

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@mcneese.chad absolutely love your reply & info, bang-on, thank you!

Exactly: It seems w the given def of VH, AO must require use of bailouts, and therefore is a technical DNF. Otherwise, they totally overlap / are the same. Would love to see TR Team jump on and update def of AO.

Frankly, to remove confusion and streamline it deeeliciously, given bailouts, they could remove AO from the survey and have the system auto-detect and apply AO if bailouts were used.

[Could easily add buffer like </=5 or 10 s stoppage of power, no AO, > gives AO.]

I’d humbly make one small edit to your fantastico chart: “Wondered a bit…” → “…may have had moments where you felt 100% sure you weren’t going to finish” or similar / better phrased / more succinct.

If AO = bailouts and technical DNF, VH has to include the very deepest pushes, with all the lying to yourself, broken promises over and over again, etc, that go with true max efforts where you do end up succeeding.

[What? No, I don’t have emotional damage from Bashful+3 and Meade these past couple weeks, don’t be silly, I was fiiiiiiine.]

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I like the suggestions, how about something like as a 1st try:

  • Had serious doubts about completing it, but you did.
  • Had serious doubts about finishing but you did… barely.
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@mcneese.chad I like both, but really love the second one. Love to hear what others think.

Captures the desperation, and also gives some clarity that yes, VHs can feel like you barely got there, by the skin of your teeth, but you did get there.

They will indeed feel like you went “All Out” !! : )

[Little joke at the inherent confusion in the current TR defs!]

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Sweet, I like the 2nd option best as well. I put that in for now:

Thanks :100: for your thoughtful review and suggestion.
It’s that type of interaction I really value around here. :smiley:

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@mcneese.chad thank you as well! Same!

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@philan @mcneese.chad They’ve changed it since you posted those screen shots. [Unless I’m missing something.]

Productive → Very Hard → Full PL upgrade to WO level, +0.9

Also very worth note: I had no struggle survey after this. You can see it’s just listed as ‘Very Hard’, instead of ‘Sleep’, ‘Nutrition’, etc.

I thought all VHs produced a struggle survey. Unsure why I didn’t get one here.

No, it’s not that simple. VH amy be appropriate and accepting for some higher Productive level workouts, and even more likely OK for Stretch and Breakthrough level workouts.

Changed what exactly. I still see no mention of Bailouts in the All Out rating definition in the TR support article.

@mcneese.chad sorry, I meant they had changed the VH = no PL advancement thing. I thought @philan had posted that he observed that, and a screenshot of it, but when he changed it to Hard, it awarded a PL advancement.

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I realize you’ve already updated the table, but as a suggestion, maybe:

This should have been a struggle, but I didn’t get the struggle survey

Whenever I’ve selected All Out, I’ve been given the struggle survey, but I don’t have enough experience doing it (sample set of 1) to know if that’s always the case or just been how mine were handled so far.

I don’t know the specifics about when TR serves a follow up Struggle survey to All Out ratings. I suspect it is the majority, if not all cases but I don’t know for certain. Additionally, it’s possible to receive the Struggle survey on Very Hard ratings, because I and others have had that.

So I am not sure if I have a clear edit to make with that Struggle survey in mind?

I should’ve quoted you properly. I was thinking of this:

I do find it funny though. Because there must be some trigger point with Bailouts where they trigger a Struggle survey by default vs using All Out which seems to give the same Struggle survey. My question is how fine or where is the line between a default Struggle survey vs TR still giving you the regular survey and an All Out leading to the Struggle as a follow up?

And in my mind this translated to a clear rule → it should have been a struggle, but wasn’t for some reason. Put differently, when finishing a workout and being surprised that I didn’t get the struggle survey, I would pick All Out.

Not sure if that’s just one more on top of what you’ve already captured perfectly well, though.

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OK, my older version might have covered this:

image

I removed that 5th line a somewhat recently, because I wasn’t sure it was helpful.

Today I was doing Bird +2. All was going well until my legs starting cramping about 11 intervals in. This was most likely due to DOMS from starting back into lifting yesterday. I only finished 12 of the 15 intervals so I answered all our/did not pass. Up until the cramps I was doing fine and hitting the power targets. I think I would have finished. For the survey as to why I failed what is the most appropriate, and does it actually matter. Or do they all change the upcoming workouts intensity the same due to the failure?

I would’ve answered “Training Fatigue” as it was your weight training that caused it. Whether that is right or wrong…who knows?

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