Does anyone actually ever use the All Out or Max effort survey option? I don’t like that it asks me why it was “too hard”. Too hard would mean I didn’t finish or I had to modify the efforts to finish. I find it especially odd when I’m rating my effort in a race. Last week I got the worst Track Hack I’ve ever had after a tempo race that the base speed was 30 mph. That was the first race of the night. I was absolutely cooked by the end, it was definitely an all-out effort but it wasn’t too hard. I raced well. That was a just right effort.
My ratings are based off of how much mental work I needed to complete: Easy is I didn’t even notice the ride, I could read a book the whole time. Moderate is when it notice but it’s still otherwise “easy”. Hard is when it has my attention but I wasn’t negotiating with myself or anything to get through it. Very Hard is when I’m counting down the intervals when I’m only on 2 of 6; I’m having to back pedal for a few seconds in the valleys; I’m negotiating and coaching myself through each effort. It’s rarely a physical thing. my muscles aren’t wearing out, my head is just freaking out and trying to get me to stop.
Occassionally, I get a work out with all that mental anguish AND my legs are on fire but I get through it. That’s All Out, but that’s not too hard. Am I alone in this? Am I rating it wrong? I want to be honest with my ratings but I don’t want future workouts modified needlessly.
Maybe I should also share my stats: 330 4.5 w/kg, TR user for 9+ years so this isn’t my first rodeo. It just bugs me to have a rating scale and not use the entire thing, feels like poor design.
I think that’s only an option when the program detects that you “failed”, such as lowering the intensity or skipping an interval. I’m pretty sure it’s not an option is you complete the workout but give it a 5.
Probably not worth losing too much sleep over. Do outside races even affect adaptations?
I’m going on what I remember of the official descriptions:
Very hard for me is I did the workout as prescribed, no dialing down the watts, no skipping intervals. But dang, I couldn’t do another.
If I had to cut it short or dial it back on a few intervals, that’s max effort.
A race? It should be “all out” right? but an uncontested finish (not for first) in my XCO race last weekend didn’t require me to turn myself inside out on the last climb and sprint to the finish. I could have done more if circumstances demanded it. The race effort isn’t precisely defined. Now an over long event where I’m noticeably dropping off pace on the last lap, I would put that as “too intense” for me just for my notes.
Easy
This ride felt easy and non-taxing, requiring little effort or focus. You could repeat the ride and pass it without issue.
Moderate
This ride was somewhat comfortable but required some focus to complete. You felt a little challenged but had confidence that you could finish. If the ride had an additional set of intervals, you could complete it.
Hard
This ride required effort and focus and was challenging to complete. This will feel tough and you’ll look forward to this ride ending. If there was an additional interval, you could have done it with some focus.
Very Hard
This ride was very difficult to complete. This ride tested you. If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it.
All Out
This ride was extremely difficult. It pushed me well beyond my abilities and took a massive amount of energy and focus to complete. You’ll feel like you barely made it to the end of this ride, and that you had to pull out every mental trick in the book to finish.
Any idea how that works? If I do an workout in ERG mode exactly as prescribed, how does it know if it was easy or hard for me and then decide on adaptations?
Hey @steampedals, I think when it comes to racing, the expectations of effort are a bit different than those in a prescribed workout.
We don’t anticipate any of your prescribed workouts to feel like an “all-out” effort, but every once in a while, they do, and we need to know why. Generally speaking, you really don’t need to push yourself to an absolute all-out effort during training. Yes, intervals can be very challenging, but overall, they shouldn’t feel like they’ve taken absolutely everything out of you to finish.
In terms of racing, I think it’s expected to push yourself to your limits, especially during A races.
If you’re getting workouts that are really mentally tough, but they aren’t “too hard,” then I’d mark those as “Very Hard” since they don’t sound like they’re taking absolutely everything out of you to finish.
To us, “All-Out” does signify that the workout was likely too hard.
This has been shared on here previously and I found it a huge help when using Trainerroad
Very similar to Saddlesaur’s post above whose post includes a little more detail.
IMO, these definitions should be on the screen where you check off the option at the end of a workout. On the phone app you can tap and display the definitions, but not in the PC app. I printed this out and keep it on my trainer desk for reference.
FWIW: I posted similar TR guidance which is basically the same but with more detail a few post earlier.
That’s basically how i’ve always envisioned the breakdown, I’ve just found the “too hard” questions after a 5 odd. To me, “too hard” means I would have failed. If I finished the workout as prescribed then it wasn’t “too hard”. If I’m dialing back the intensity, or skipping bits, extending a rest valley, it usually clocks that and asks me at the end of the work out.
I guess my confusion/frustration comes from the “too hard” questions at the end. If I finished a workout without modifying it in any way, then it wasn’t too hard. Too hard would be skipping an interval or lowering the intensity on the last set or something, and when we do that, the program detects those changes and then asks about it at the end. My workouts very rarely tip into that “all out” effort but they occasionally do. But when I answer that I don’t want to be like “yeah the intensity was too much, dial back my next one a little please.” It was a max effort but I handled it. I’ll recover for a couple days and be fine. I think for outdoor rides, I would just love an additional answer that’s like “All Out”, why? “Race effort”. Like i said, I’m reaaaaally experienced with structured training so I have a good sense when a workout is going to hurt me for a few days and when it was a max effort but i’ll be fine in 48 hours so i don’t like the implication that I went too hard and my training might need to dial back a little.
If i back pedal but don’t extend the rest intervals, I consider that Very Hard. Maybe if i’m doing the whole rest period without pedalling forward, but if it’s just the first few seconds after the efforts, that’s Very Hard to me.
The only time that you should be getting a struggle survey is if you lower the intensity of the workout enough, skip intervals, or rate the workout “All-Out.”
It sounds like the complications here stem from the term “All-Out.” For now, I’d save that rating for workouts that were too hard for you, even if you were able to complete them. Workouts that feel that tough likely would have been more productive had they been slightly less intense. This doesn’t mean that they should feel easy, but, again, you shouldn’t be putting in true all-out efforts during training very often..
I’ll pass this feedback along to the team, though!
This x1000. I recently conquered my goals in a 100 mile gravel race, and like every race goal, my tank was EMPTY when I crossed the finish line.
I rated it as all out due to the intensity, because it was… That’s the point of a race.. Then the summary called it “too intense.” Does that somehow hurt my next AI FTP evaluation?
I can’t speak for everyone, but as someone with performance goals, if I do a race that isn’t 100% effort, I consider that a failure. There’s only one time it happened, in a 10k about 6 years ago. I crushed my goal time, my optimistic goal time, and my PR. BUT, I started my final kick too late and had more left in the tank when I crossed the finish line than I wish I had. To me, that is the most disappointing race I’ve done. Unless I’m winning a race, which may never happen, effort > results. I can’t control who else shows up, what the wind or conditions or temp may be, but I 100% have my effort in my control for every single race.
but an uncontested finish (not for first) in my XCO race last weekend didn’t require me to turn myself inside out on the last climb and sprint to the finish. I could have done more if circumstances demanded it. The race effort isn’t precisely defined. Now an over long event where I’m noticeably dropping off pace on the last lap, I would put that as “too intense” for me just for my notes.
