Anybody watch "The Game Changers"?

Nutrition
423

I’m not blaming anyone and my feelings aren’t hurt whatsoever, just saying this type of “message” doesn’t seem to be having the intended effect. If it did, we’d all be vegans by now.

As for your 2nd paragraph, we would substitute factory farming and animals with China and human rights/child labor (You don’t buy anything from China, right? If you don’t care about human rights, then just say you don’t care), fossil fuels/oil and the environment, human rights, etc…

Have I convinced you to not buy anything from China and stop using fossil fuels? I’m guessing not, but man it sure feels good to virtue signal and pass judgement on others. Seriously, I can’t believe how morally superior I’m feeling right now, it’s awesome! /sarcasm

I don’t actually hold those views, those are just for illustration. The message and how it’s conveyed matters and it matters a lot. Implying that omnivores are murderers (of animals, the environment, and people) puts an end to what could be an educational, productive exchange.

PEACE!

425

Nice insult. You’ve made my points about vegan messaging far better than I did.

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426

Please, help us out here. What do you mean by “vegan messaging”, and most importantly, which particular bit do you disagree with ?

Thanks.

427

That’s from a post above. This is hard for me to get across clearly… I’m not saying that vegans are wrong about animals and such, I’m saying that IF their goal is to improve the plight of those things then they should work on their messaging to gain converts instead of creating enemies.

That’s all, no judgement, no blame.

429

Okay, let’s approach it from a slightly different angle. When scientists tell us that smoking is a direct cause of lung cancer, are you suggesting that they should present their research in a different way ?
Same goes to human-caused global climate change and animal suffering. You are presented with facts. It is your choice whether you want to get offended by them or not, but don’t blame the messenger for it telling you that.

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430

I’ll state it again, humans cause an immense amount of human suffering (e.g. this thread), until they can cease to do so, how on Groo’s green earth can you expect them to treat animals any better? The best you can do is change a singularity – yourself. As long as meat is more profitable than veggies, the culture isn’t going to see a seismic shift.

Go vegan for health reasons – sure.
Go vegan for ecological reasons – yup.
Go vegan for economical reasons – ok.
Go vegan for moral/ethical reasons… :thinking:

The last one is almost never going to win people over, ever.

431

Do you think people used to say the same thing about slavery after it’s been about for millennia ?

432

Outside of the vegan conversation: are you saying slavery has ceased?

433

No, I am saying that we’ve made a conscious decision that slavery is not normal. Just because it’s taking us over a hundred years to eradicate it, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

434

Mmmm…I’m not American so I could definitely be wrong, but pretty sure only some of “we” made a conscious decision to abolish traditional slavery. The other part of “we” made a conscious decision to fight to keep slavery established. Legally, traditional slavery has been eradicated, but the mentality and practice have never ceased.

Would be a bit bizarre if vegans went to war and killed 1% of the human population in the name of animal suffering.

Keep up the good fight. :+1:
Should be an entertaining show.

435

I find this line of argument very strange. Why shouldn’t moral/ethical reasons play a part in someone’s choice to go vegan? Also, why shouldn’t they use those reasons if trying to put forward the case for veganism?

You seem to be suggesting that this isn’t a worthwhile line or argument because you’re never going to convince the entirety of the world’s population to change their exploitation and abuse of humans, yet alone animals. And you’re right - but what you can do is challenge the beliefs of some people, perhaps enough to make them change some of their behaviours in the ‘right’ direction.

You say that “the best you can do is change a singularity - yourself”. I think that you can do better than that. Of course, changing your own actions is the easiest things to do, but you might also be able to convince one or two other people. In the context of the global population this is obviously an insignificant amount of change. However, I’d rather make a small difference than none at all. Even if I don’t change anyone’s opinion, then I’m happy knowing that I at least tried to do my part. The more people that make those choices, the bigger the effect.

We live in a consumer society, and I do what I can through my choices as a consumer to limit my impact on others (people and animals). I’m under no illusion that these choices make a significant difference in the grand scheme of things, but they make a difference to someone/something somewhere. I’m also far from perfect. I use a computer, a smart phone, I drive a car, I buy stuff that I don’t know any details about the supply chain. It’s almost impossible to not do this unless you build a cabin in the woods and go off-grid, but isn’t it better to try and at least limit your impact on others where possible.

I’m not on a crusade to convert the world to veganism. I wouldn’t even mention it to someone unless they questioned me about it or they are providing me with food. However, I’ll readily engage with threads like this that discuss the topic as I believe that it’s important to have reasoned debate about these issues if people want to engage with the subject (and if they don’t then the thread is easily ignored - I’m not ramming my opinions down anyone’s throat).

I also think it’s important to combat the stereotypes about vegans. For clarification, as a vegan:

  1. I don’t value animal life more than human life - if there was some hypothetical situation that required me to kill a bunch of animals with my bare hands to save a human then I’d do it without a second thought (even if those animals were really cute and the human was an absolute dick).
  2. I don’t think badly of anyone because they choose to eat meat, and I certainly don’t think they are ‘murderers’. Being vegan is my choice, but it hasn’t always been. I’ve earned money in the past directly through meat production (farm hand, worked in an abattoir, worked in a dairy products factory). It it came down to a choice between not being able to support my family and having to work in an abattoir again then hand me that knife.
  3. I’m not against animal-testing. I’m against it for cosmetics and non-essential products, but when it is necessary for the development of medicines or where it is necessary for scientific study then I don’t have an issue with it, so long it is done as humanely as possible and there is a true need for it. I’ve even worked on projects that involve animal testing in the past and would happily do so again.

I could go on, but my point is this: you don’t have to buy into all the vegan propaganda to chose to be vegan. You don’t have to be a flag-waving member of Greenpeace. You don’t have to think that meat is murder. There is no such thing as a stereotypical vegan, just as there is no stereotypical meat-eater.

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436

What a bizarre way of looking at things. I’m not vegan but I think the moral/ethical argument is the strongest argument that vegans have.

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437

Should the moral/ethic reasonings of meat eaters be any less valid?

How was that for you? I know someone who worked in a meat processing plant for a short period, after he left he didn’t eat meat for many, many years (and still won’t even look at a hot dog!).

438

Not at all and that’s clearly not what I said.

I’m just pointing out that it would seem to me that the moral/ethical argument made by some vegans is much more compelling, thought provoking and easier for the average man to empathise with than that of climate change, ecology, economy or even health

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439

I was young, needed a job, and didn’t really think twice about it. It wasn’t a phase in my life when I really gave much thought to the impact of my dietary choices on my health, the environment, or animal welfare. I liked meat, so I ate meat. It was 20 years later that I stopped eating meat.

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440

Go vegan for health reasons – sure.

I’m still not convinced. Sure eating less and less shitty is always better (duh), but meat isn’t necessarily bad for you. Sure too much of it might be bad, but as long as you eat “as much as needed” (which is less than people think) I suspect you’ll be fine. And losing weight will always improve your health even on a shitty diet. I’d like to see a study of someone who doesn’t eat a lot of meat and who already eats a lot of veggies and show what happens if you replace meat with vegan alternatives whilst not losing weight.

The suggestion of the “documentary” (I’d rather call it propaganda) is that it will make you a better athlete… I don’t think I agree with that either… Can you get away with it … sure… probably… maybe?

441

I mean this in all sincerity… I have a question.

Many studies have shown that athletes can benefit from up to 1g protein per lb of bodyweight. Even a conservative estimate at the 1.2g/kg (American College of Sports Medicine) would put me at around 100g conservatively to around 180g on the high end of protein a day.

How exactly do I get this every single day without supplementing with protein powders? They push this 24g of protein in a PB sandwich, but am I supposed to eat 6 of those a day? Hitting those protein numbers with strictly plants is an ENORMOUS amount of food.

Again, I’m not trying to attack veganism, but that seems difficult for someone to pull off.

A much easier and healthful way to do it would be advocating a 80-90% plant based omnivore diet.

442

Hitting around 100g of protein per day on a vegan diet is really not hard. Looking back at my entries in MyFitnessPal, I get roughly that amount per day without even thinking about it.

You’re right, 180g per day would probably be tricky without eating loads, so supplementation may be the best way for a vegan to achieve those levels. I’d imagine that many meat-eaters who are trying to hit such high protein goals also use supplements. Whether or not you really need such high levels is a subject for a different debate.

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443

This is a pretty legit question and i think for vegans really tough. I am 98% vegan, aside from holidays in far away lands, and I always need Protein Power (pea protein is my go to).

Otherwise, to maximise this then it is usually tofu, tempeh, soya yoghurts, etc… A lot of beans have good protein levels but they also contain a decent number of carbs too. I feel like I am missing something here.

444

this is true, but some times but you want to have a much carb lighter day, or evening - I would argue on a vegan diet this is not necessarily so easy.