5 Years of TR but still getting dropped (Updated with Interim Results )

Training
44

Not read all the responses so sure had lot of good info already but 2 things from me:

  • Firstly in your calender there are a lot of big drops down to near zero. Consistency is key, for me if I take this year as an example I had a 2 week family holiday where I did v little (BUT did do 2 short runs a week to keep some fitness ticking over). Other than that I trained every week (Not always flat out, stuff like Xmas I do a lighter recovery type week). If sick then obviously rest but otherwise keep the consistancy and the training habit.

  • Secondly I would suggest more V02 stuff. Your training plans all seem to be focussed on sustained power which SHOULD be aimed at raising ftp…but if not working then maybe you respond better to V02 stuff. Plus this would help with the surges on group rides and give good bang for your buck to raise ftp as well. I’d swap sustained power build for general (or even short) power build. Then maybe crit or rolling road race speciality- mix it up. At end of day if not happy with results from current training then try another approach - so hit the shorter harder stuff. Hurts like heck but gets results!

However first and most important thing is to do a ramp test and REALLY push yourself to set accurate training zones. Should be gasping and slumping over bars/collapsed in heap at end push yourself!

45

Here’s a tricky and maybe slightly rude (it’s not meant to be I promise!) question - do you feel like you’re good at suffering? When you get dropped do you feel like there is nothing more you could physically do to hang on?

If a bunch of riders are making bigger gains than you on lower hours then there are 2 possibilities. One is that they all have better genetics and/or athletic backgrounds than you (e.g. Somebody who built a huge aerobic engine as a swimmer or runner in their teens still gets benefits from that years later). The other is that they’re simply working harder than you in the hours they’re doing. E.g. A level of intensity you think is a 9 on the RPE scale and would have you on the verge of stopping could be perceived by them as a 7 that they can sustain for quite a bit longer.

I have two friends I ride with who exemplify this. One loves riding his bike and does so all year round but never outwardly seems to be pushing himself and has been on a plateau for years. Like you he can do long steady efforts with no problem. But when the pace picks up, one minute he’s right there looking comfortable, the next minute he’s gone. And when we wait for him to catch up he eventually cruises up seemingly fine - certainly capable of holding a conversation. Another friend is a bit hit and miss with his training, but when he comes out he will absolutely turn himself inside out before he gets dropped. Panting and pouring with sweat, wobbling around as he tries to exert every last ounce of force he can muster onto the pedals, and when the elastic eventually snaps he’s completely gone, he sometimes has to stop to recover as he has nothing left. When he does manage a consistent block of training he makes gains very quickly and surpasses our other friend within a few weeks.

Not suggesting you should be pushing to the point of collapse on every ride. Just suggesting that for some people the point of collapse might be a bit further away than they think!

46

You wouldn’t build a house on sand, so why would you try and build top end fitness on an under developed aerobic system? As others have said in this thread, you are cramming way too much stress into far too few sessions. You really need to to rethink how you schedule your training and if you have the time to train more often, rather than dumping major fatigue on your body all in one go. If you cannot find more than 6-8hrs a week to train, it’s likely your goals aren’t realistic. I’d imagine the other members of this group structure their weeks very differently. Skipping base would be a huge mistake, there are no short cuts to developing a strong aerobic engine, too many riders train too hard instead of training long.

47

Sounds like the consensus (of your posts and previous) may be towards
1 - Go to a medium voume plan
2 - Sweet spot base > V02 Focused build and specialty
3 - i cant just drop the group’s rides so how do i supplement those with TR?

Dont worry always have the bucket by my side for those

@cartsman No offense taken. I’d like to think i’m pretty good at it and am somewhere between the both of your friends. But it’s like this on a climb … about a minute in at their pace I snap, grind it up to the top and slump over the bars/watch the stars. But who knows, maybe there’s more in the tank. However, after a few minutes to catch my breath, I can go again. I know that some of the guys definitely have better genetics (read: do not have dad bod) and played college sports, some do ironman races. I used to be a competitive tennis player w endless endurance for 5 hr matches, but always hated running “the mile” in grade school, which i guess is no surprise.

@Greased_Flea The other guys only ride these 2 day a week rides and something on the weekend. Apart from that, no trainerroad or anything similar. Maybe an occasional zwift session. So we’re definitely talking about 2 diff types of people here - or so it feels like

48

If its any consultation, World Tour pros get dropped on climbs. I do 3 different group rides and on the very hard parts the group always splinters. Guys actually devote vast quantities of energy to make sure that happens. That’s what makes it fun!

A key part of your post that has not been commented on is the fact that it sounds like you are now a regular on these rides… There is a huge difference between “i can’t ride with these folks” and 'these guys gap me on the hard parts but not so bad that I don’t come back next week."

You’re probably a lot closer to hanging on than it appears. You aren’t starting from scratch, you just need the ability to put out a handful of 2-3 minute efforts at key times. And, it will snowball. Once you can stick with the group on that first hill where they drop you now, then you’ll get to rest with them and the next hill will be easier since you won’t have to chase back on or, miss out on the rest if they stop at the top to regroup.

49

While this is something that I wonder … there is something no one has asked about: How do the TR workouts feel? Are they easy? Do you blow up? Do you curse Nate for creating the program and Chad for the workout?

How are you determining your FTP? I do horrible on the ramp test. But I do pretty well on the 8 minute test. How do you FEEL about your FTP? with 5 years of experience, you should have an idea if things are too high or low.

the next part is your recovery between group rides. How is that going? Do you do anything in between (e.g. TRUE recovery rides?)? Remember, you make gains in your recovery, not in the workout.

52

Is this a weight issue?

53

@STP Ha, very true statements!

In terms of being a regular, yes, I would say i’m one of the regulars, which is a good feeling, but when you’re the one who pulls in last on every hill (even compared to the new dudes), thats a bummer. It’s nothing they’re saying, since they’re all happy doing their thing, but we all know ricky bobby’s famous saying and its my stubborness that keeps me coming back for the pain in the hopes I can hold it!

Yes, exactly! These guys are definitely riding tempo when i’m pressing the pedal down a bit. But clearly thats them an I’m me, so i can only work on me. So what do I do for that, is it what’s said above or is the key just getting that 2-3 minute power and recovery up? How do i improve the engine further? What workouts/plans will do that? I’m committed to a medium plan now as well. But arent those sub 500 TSS as well?

@dprimm they’re definitely not easy, i did dade last week at my 216, and the last 2 intervals were just nothing left. I do the ramp test, which i like since it eliminates pacing. As far as if i think it’s right. If the above workout is any indication, then it’s probably close to right. Some stats… a 1,200 ft 4.5mi 5% climb by me it takes me ~30 min with a NP of 225 and HR of 170. By the top i’m pretty gassed/happy its totally done, but still have reserves for more climbing after 5-10 min rest. Not sure if this says anything.

Between group rides i usually kick the feet up, or if theres some repeats one day i’ll consider that, but thats maybe once a week.

@iamholland - Feel the way you do as well, but im too stubborn to quit (which is probably why i suffer)

@Bbt67 yes that sounds right. if i look at my rides with them i’m def hovering closer to FTP from an NP perspective. On the flats i can keep up with a fair bit of effort, but there are 4 punchy hills (45 sec -1 min tops) on our loop that, after keeping up with them to the top, the’re’s no gas to hold the upcoming flat pace and feels like the chest is going to explode.

What would everyone suggest is the right build plan?

55

I think this was hit on a but you just plain don’t ride enough. If I look at the calendar from Aug 26 to October 28 there is only one week that you rode 4 days and 5 weeks you only rode 2 days. Those Saturday rides of 250+ TSS are much better spent as two 100 TSS days then riding consistently the rest of the week.

You would be much faster hitting 50 TSS Tuesday - Friday and 75 - 150 on Saturday and Sunday vs doing one huge ride one day in a week.

I don’t know your work/life situation but I find it hard to believe when people can’t fine 45-60m to exercise per day. I also think your FTP is set too low as a 400 TSS day is absolutely huge if your FTP is right and you’re doing that every Saturday that is not a good way to train.

Good luck.

56

I think you have the same problem as the OP, you are used to riding at your pace and just get used to it. You need to do more of the intense efforts to change your perception of what you can do and dont give up on your goal.

Everyone I know who only rides solo at the same pace does not make progress, they can’t even hold a wheel at a pace I think they should be able to sustain given their long distance performance. You need to do more of the rides where you get dropped, trust me, if you ride with good people they won’t mind because they know that it will help you.

57

@Bikeguy0 That seems to alot of the consensus on “volume”, at least in my case, since my riding companions are apparently genetic freaks and can do this on 2 days a week.

The Sat rides are my outdoor longer days, which frankly are the ones I enjoy becaues its a real ride outside and is the whole reason I do this to begin with. Being fast and not being able to ride outside is useless to me, again not looking to be a racer, but want to crush my fondos faster.

I think the 400 tss is a bit misleading, it was my longest ride ever (160 mi) but 60% of the time was endurance/recovery, so it was sheer saddle time that got it there. Simlarly the weekends are longer days, 50-70 mi w some casual rollers then some climbs. Again, duration is alot of the TSS on weekends, not so much the intensity. Long and short is, I can’t (won’t) give up the weekend rides because thats WHY I ride, its the reward for all of the 5 days suffering in my living room, but I can definitely add/adjust during the weekdays.

Its like this, in the summer it’s Mon/Wed/Fri free Tues/Thurs/Sat(or Sunday) with the crew. Winter i’d suspect this all to change and is when i’m planning on doing a bit of revamping of my TR calendar. So looking for a consensus and heres the Q:

What build plan should i do? and If i do SSB again at my same FTP as last year, how will that help me? or is the added daily volume the driver for improvement?

Eveyrone is definitely saying more volume, but mixed in terms of what comes next?

Also, gotta say, the response here has been huge, so thanks to everyone for replying!

58

You need to commit to a plan then commit to near 100% compliance in terms of getting on the bike on the days the plan says you should ride and at least 90% or better compliance on doing the full scheduled workout of the day. That’s the secret sauce. The rest (i.e. what particular plans) is minor by comparison.

As for rolling in last, if they did not want to wait they won’t wait. I do 2 group rides, one hilly one flat, with regroups which have me on both sides of this. (there’s a 3rd ride where no one waits for anyone). On the flat ride I’m often at or near the front on the hard parts and in the 'waiting" group (I get dropped on the climby ride and roll in late to the waiting group). In the waiting group no one is ever whining about waiting. We’re all happy to rest up. If there still there when you get to the top, its because they want to be there. If they wanted to leave you, they would.

59

Thanks - During the winters/when im signed up for a plan i dont miss days and almost never bail on workouts, I can prob think of 2 times in the past year. My fear is that doing the same thing again at the same FTP is going to get me to the same spot, and that maybe its a stimulis (intensity/quantity/v02/sustained) vs compliance issue? Clearly volume is low and that can be fixed, but what about the stimulis of type?

Appreciate the sentiments, and yes, thats definitley the case. Just would like to be able to keep up with the squad and crack this FTP/aerobic issue I got going on!

60

Also helpful are your local amateur “crit” type rides that last an hour with 20-30 minutes of ramping intensity, then 20-30 minutes of insanity, followed by an all out lap. The key with these is to work as hard as you can to stay with the pack, when you think you can’t hang on any longer, keep hanging on for another 1/2-full lap. Then drop off the back to a Z2 pace and recover, once the pack laps you and catches up, jump back on the back, hang on till you think you can’t, then hang on longer, drop off, recover, repeat, repeat, repeat.

61

We do 3 laps, warmup (which to me is pretty much already somewhere at tempo/threshold) a hammer (which is an all out 14-16 min sprint - regroup post sprint - fortunately no lapping!) and then a cooldown. So all about an hour or so. When i get dropped on the sprint lap, I just keep smashing it and usually get there around a min or so behind the other guys. My thought is just keeping at it will help, but the crits will all end come winter.

62

5 years on TrainerRoad assuming good compliance should almost always yield better results than this. It’s hard to imagine a scenario where a healthy human would be stuck at 2.8w/kg. What is your age? If you’re 70, this wouldn’t be a bad FTP.

Something isn’t adding up

63

If you’re only a minute behind on a 14 minute lap that’s pretty good.

One of my rides has a 14 minute flat loop and sometimes I hang with the fast group and sometimes I lose it 10 minutes in and end up a minute back. That is a very fine line. Usually a combo of wasting a small amount of energy getting stuck too near the front early on and then later missing one short acceleration because of excess fatigue. I certainly do better when I am fitter but the guys with real fitness issues are off the back 2-3 minutes in. You’re close!

67

What’s interesting is that the medium volume plans will end up being lower TSS and total hours than i’ve been doing now 300 vs 500+, though as some have said, just more days. How would this lower overall TSS impact where I am now?

@Bbt67 i Re-tested end of july and ended up with around the same FTP. According to my latest max 20 min power (that climb i mentioned) I’m at 214 if we use the 95% rule.

68

If you feel challenged during 1 to 5 minutes time frame why not Short Power Build? I think it would be your best build option. Also if sweetspot isn’t giving you the improvement you expect there is always Traditional Base. Maybe you respond better to the lower intensity?

69

It’s been said a few times, but the issue you have is twofold; you haven’t tested for a long while and you’re not consistent. Over the last 10 weeks you’ve averaged 2.4 rides a week and a few instances where you don’t ride for 4-6 days straight. For someone who has been using TR for 5 years, you should really be on the MV plans or supplement LV with extra rides outside. You need to make sure you are completing 3 workouts a week. Consistency is the key my friend.