Your FTP improvements

[dsirrom]

@Captain_Doughnutman

But then again, I’m not 21 years old nor did I do 3 double-days in a row for 3 weeks, so…yeah, pretty good I guess!

Interesting- sound brutal.

Do you happen have a link to the protocol, to give me a rough idea of what / how to set something like this up using TR workouts?

I’m not 21 either but fancy giving it a go at some point

Thanks

[jarsson]

Start hard and hold for your dear life for every interval
You can choose whatever length you like of the intervals. The decreasing duration makes it a little “easier” Every workout is around 20min TiZ.

Week 1:
M: 4x5 VO2 max
T: 5x4
W: 6x3,5

Week 2:
M: 5x4 VO2 max
T: 6x3,5
W: 7x3

Week 3:
M: 6x3,5 VO2 max
T: 7x3
W: 8x2

The rest of the days is very easy Z2.

[jmdcovas]

My main concern with that is burnout. I would end up exhausted, physically and mentally. How did you find it?

[AJS914]

I tried a two a week protocol and fell apart in the 2nd week after three workouts. After a couple of weeks of rest, I did it again and performed a lot better with the experience in my legs.

I’d suggest that if one is not currently doing any max intervals then you can start really slow with some primer sessions. Moore talks about a preceding threshold block just getting used to short threshold intervals. He also talks about a much less demanding schedule for older athletes - I think he mentions 9 workouts sprinkled over many weeks or months.

Having done these, I think there is value in mini sessions - just start with 3x1min full gas, hard start, high cadence. See how that goes. Try a 3x2min next. Then try a 2x3min, etc.

I’m 55 years old and when I did this block the most I built up to was 3x5min. 15 minutes was enough for me.

Recommended listening are the Empirical Cycling podcasts. He was also on Endurance Innovations:

[AJS914]

You can also read this topic:

Hard start VO2max intervals

I’ve had a few requests to share some hard start VO2max workouts I created. I created the following team that has four workouts to start with. Edit. Now 14 workouts. https://www.trainerroad.com/app/teams/14144-hard-start-vo2-max-intervals The workouts are a variant on the one below - with 6 x 2.5 minute, 3.0 minute , 3.5 minute and 4.0 minute VO2max intervals. Edit: I’ve also added workouts with longer intervals - 4 x 5, 5.5, and 6 min intervals. Edit: I’ve also created HS-1 versions whe…

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@dsirrom

Interesting- sound brutal.

Do you happen have a link to the protocol, to give me a rough idea of what / how to set something like this up using TR workouts?

I’m not 21 either but fancy giving it a go at some point

It is brutal, IF you do a proper VO2max block (key word being ‘MAX’).

No official protocol (see below), I’m not actually coached by Empirical Cycling, just a fan who’s cobbled together made-public advice & tips from them. TR has a lot of VO2 workouts to choose from so you should be able to find some that fit your needs.

@jmdcovas

My main concern with that is burnout. I would end up exhausted, physically and mentally. How did you find it?

Yeah, it’s gross, no two ways about it. Especially, as above, if you focus on going max.
Personally, I find it much more of a mental challenge than physical.

In the spring I tried 2 days on/1 day off…that didn’t go so well. This block I went 1 on/1 off (basically 4 workouts/week); much better results. Because of the “extra” recovery, I stuck with 4-5min intervals. Also, I find it’s the extra hard starts which really load up my fatigue vs the longer interval time so I do less but longer intervals (as I get to the end of the block, I’ve basically semi-trained my FRC/anaerobic so the starts aren’t as bad).

You kinda have to do what will work for you. Nailing the workout is only half the battle, if you don’t recover properly, you’ll never make it. I had a 2-week holiday so decided to do the VO2 work even though it was at a less than perfect time in the training cycling – the extra recovery time out-weighed the inefficiency.

Interesting experience: 2020 hit my all-time high FTP after doing a 3-month Polarized block; 2021 hit basically the same FTP after a 3-week VO2max block. The POL was a slow burn, the VO2 is like a nitro rocket – hits a lot different!

[Herne]

So, it’s been over a year since I posted here and at that point, people said that my results were poor, like +5W over three months or so. And the thing is, it’s still not good, I’m really struggling with the ramp tests. I can actually hold my FTP value for 20 minutes outside and according to all other metrics than the ramp test, the fitness have improved quite a bit.
What would be your suggestion? I’m afraid my fitness will go down since the workouts doesn’t get any harder. Thinking that maybe I should add 1W per 1-2 weeks or something like that and see what happens?
I’m 42 and have been training with power since 2014 and I have never felt (or actually been) faster. Yet, the ramp tests are horrible and today I did the first one for a couple of months, and the result was way below my 20 min power done outside, say 10-15W lower.

Edit: Estimated FTP around 260.

[splash]

Your 20min power isn’t your FTP. Commonly your FTP is about 5% lower than your 20min power. On the other hand, you should be able to hold your FTP for about 40mins at least.

Also, its very common to be able to hold higher power outside compared to inside - partly down to cooling, but also other factors.

If you feel you don’t test well with the ramp test, you could try a longer-form test. Just be aware that the results might be slightly different, and only compare among the same tests.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

1. Rest for a week or so.

2. Check your indoor equipment, make sure it’s all functioning & calibrated.

3. Start over.

4. Low volume Base + Z2 filler volume, as much as you can.

5. After Base, do 2 weeks of VO2max + Z2 workouts. Rest.

6. Continue with LV Build etc. + Z2 filler volume, as much as you can.

Have fun!

p.s. - the ramp test isn’t for everyone; use a testing protocol which works for you and use it consistently.

[Herne]

@splash

Your 20min power isn’t your FTP. Commonly your FTP is about 5% lower than your 20min power. On the other hand, you should be able to hold your FTP for about 40mins at least.

Right. So maybe doing 260 outside for 20 mins and “only” 250 at ramp test ain’t too bad/incorrect anyway?

But I’m still worried about the results since I’m getting faster without increasing my FTP or maybe I’m just over thinking?

[Herne]

Thanks, solid advice!
Just came off two slow weeks after my A race (with a few lifetime power PRs) so maybe i’m just not mentally ready to go back to training indoors yet. And it was way too warm.

That said, I added 4W to my FTP settings, will give it a shot for a few weeks.

[jarsson]

@Herne

Thinking that maybe I should add 1W per 1-2 weeks or something like that and see what happens?

Given measurement error and daily fluctuation and following opinion of some established coaches I would not care about less than 5% changes of your FTP. Or give or take 10W. Your body does not see the difference between 260 and 264 watts in terms of adaptations.

[AJS914]

@Herne

with a few lifetime power PRs

Something is going up!

If the ramp test is a struggle, try a longer test like the Kolie Moore baseline (35-45+ minutes). I find it easier than the standard 20 minute test.

[Jackc70]

My FTP has flattened out at around 3.6-3.8w/kg for a couple of years now. I’m 51yo, but still fit and active and I reckon there’s more in the tank, but no matter what I do I can’t break 4w/kg. My current FTP (last tested) is 245w. Last year I was 2kg lighter and at 252w. I trained hard this year but felt myself going backwards. The change in plans plus the AT beta I think didn’t help. Training felt ‘choppy’ and inconsistent. I did get a PR for my 10min power, but that’s not much consolation to someone targeting hour long climbs haha.

[Jackc70]

I feel your pain. Ramps consistently give me low readings compared to something like a 20min test or Kolie Moore’s tests. If I used my Ramp results this year I’d have gone from 240, to 223 to 218… I think mentally when I do a Ramp I just defeat myself as I ‘know’ I’ll suck.

[HLaB]

I think that’s similar for me. I can test nearly 50w higher with a 20mins test

[hubcyclist]

Well it’s funny that my comment was from 3 years ago, I’ve had a bit more luck/growth in the time since I think. Currently, I’m training at 290 ftp and I’ve done base build and almost half of CX specialty using adaptive training. While I haven’t changed my ftp this year, I think my power is stronger over shorter durations. I went outdoors today and did a bunch of 2min intervals at over 120% so I’m feeling pretty well prepared for CX season

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@Jackc70

I reckon there’s more in the tank, but no matter what I do I can’t break 4w/kg

Volume + VO2max is your winning combo to smashing a plateau.

Do as much Z2 volume as you possibly can for as long as you can (e.g. 15+ hrs/wk for 3 months).

Do a couple dedicated 2-week VO2max blocks during the year (3-5 sessions/wk).

Focus on rest, recovery, and fatigue management.

You can do it!

[Herne]

That sounds very much like my experience as well. My W/kg has been pretty much static over the last 2-3 years. But since the fitness is improving, maybe I shouldn’t bother too much.

Thanks for the suggestion @AJS914 , great idea! Are you using the ones in Team Gold? Any preference on the different ones? I’m looking at option 1 since taking a FTP test for over 90 mins sounds HORRIBLE, but maybe that’s not really the experience

[AJS914]

I just do the Baseline test on my trainer manually (no erg). Warm up for 20 minutes, and then start the test. I use the lap button on my garmin and just look at the test data afterwards in Strava and WKO. WKO has always detected a new mFTP from the effort.