I’m not closely following this thread, or the “SS was never intended to be intervalized” train of thought.
Before joining TR I bought and read “Training and Racing with a Power Meter” second edition (2010). Nearly all power based training is based on this book. Here is what that book says about Sweet Spot:
its not an official power zone, instead it straddles upper tempo and lower threshold (also referred to as “sub-threshold”)
excellent area to start building FTP and push it higher
recommended to train heavily in sweet spot at beginning of racing season, before moving into threshold training
also great to revisit around the middle of June in order to achieve a 2nd peak in fall
throughout the year it should be incorporated into schedule at least once or twice every 14 days
example outdoor workout is 20 minute warmup/opener, then 2x20-min with 15 min rest between at high cadence, the 10x1-min 105rpm with 2 min rest between, finally a cooldown
if a build up is needed, start with 3x12-min and build up to 4x12-min, then start over at 3x15-min and build up to 4x15-min, then start over at 2x20-min. Higher category racers should progress to 3x20-min and 4x20-min
do at least 6-8 sweet spot workouts before moving to threshold
The 3rd edition of the book will be published in April. If you don’t have the book, I recommend picking it up to help you customize TR’s plans to your own training.
You should listen to the episode of the FasCat Coaching podcast where Frank Overton discusses how the original sweet spot training came about. He describes exactly what @Captain_Doughnutman is talking about: Long continuous sweet spot efforts to exhaustion and then continuing into the lower zones. That’s not to say it can’t be made into intervals, but the origin is quite different.
“Sweet Spot: __ hrs” I prescribe this “free form” workout for ultra motivated athletes with a TSS goal that’s based on previous data. Suffice it to say, this 30 minute to 4 hour workout is not popular (because of the degree of difficulty).
Instructions: go out and ride hard. Start off the ride just below your threshold wattage around 90 – 95% of your threshold power. Get after it and as you fatigue let your wattage fall between tempo wattages. Then after further fatigue sets in, high zone 2 finishes off the workout.
Yes, but only because the original workout was/is “not popular (because of the degree of difficulty)“ and the new options are “easy on the “head”. In other words, not mentally taxing.”
True Sweet Spotting requires both muscular and mental endurance.
This is typical of the weekend Zwift event ride I try to do now based on info from this forum. Unfortunately my endurance isn’t that good right now and I start to fade at 1:45 (h:mm) into the ride. After I crack on the SS intensity, I back off and put in my remaining time in Z2.
I’m only 3 weeks into SSBHV1 so I will begin to switch out most of the scheduled weekday TR rides for those longer SS rides recommended above. Another advantage of killing the rest periods is that you get more TSS into the same amount of time. Last year I followed the SSBHV plans like a donkey and it was good, but I think this will be better.
Just listened to it, twice because I was outside working in the yard all afternoon.
He said he didn’t invent sweet spot.
He said 12 coaches plus Coggan were involved.
He described how he was in base and training between 3-5pm and his goal was to generate as much TSS to raise CTL as much as possible while riding a lot of days per week.
He settled into “freestyle manner” training to generate the most TSS in the 1.5-2 hours he had. He would start the ride pacing below threshold, starting around 97% and using the rollers for some recovery, then as he tired ratcheting power down, eventually landing in high tempo as long as possible, and then finish the ride in high zone 2.
When the group discussed in the context of the TSS/CTL model, it was 84-97% ftp up until the high zone 2. His TSS at that time was 80-125 during the work week.
He didn’t talk about what other coaches were doing, or what they learned from their athletes.
When was training athletes and he told them to do “freestyle sweet spot” by starting out close to ftp, then gradually letting it fade down to tempo, and then finishing in zone 2. He didn’t know how long he sustain it, maybe 1.5 hours. When asked “how long” to sweet spot, he said I don’t know, until you get too tired. Then he started assigning 3 hours of sweet spot. His athletes got fast. He didn’t say anything about their compliance.
“Now you can do, everyone knows you do sweet spot intervals for um, gosh, I like to prescribe them anywhere from 8 to 20 minutes, if your Phil Gaimon we would do from the bottom to top of Mt. Baldy for 45 minutes or things like that, do that 2 or 3 times. But um, its an intensity. But the original way was free form.”
In his own words on that podcast, Frank Overton didn’t invent sweet spot. The coaches that wrote Training and Racing with a Power Meter were part of the group that came up with sweet spot training. We don’t have the perspective of the other 12 people in that group except in the Coggan/Allen book where sweet spot interval training is based at 88-94% ftp and details in my post above. Frank’s original sweet spot workout is “free style” at 84-97% and I think a better term would be “Overton’s free form sweet spot.”
My 2 cents.
I nodded my head in agreement quite a bit during Frank’s story. My own personal best season is a result of having done twice a week 30+ minute outdoor sweet spot work during base, trying for at least one long 50 minute interval or at least two shorter 30-45 minute intervals during that 2 hour training slot. Didn’t have a name for it, just knew that I was targeting long 40 minute over-under efforts on Wed night group ride, and a long 1-3 hour sustained climbs at least once a month.
Funny, I just woke up in a bad mood: Scotland got hammered by France at the Rugby yesterday.
Anyway, I read your point 1 (He said he didn’t invent sweet spot) and was totally raging, like it was some contradiction to what I’d said; I mean I’ve listened to the podcast and I know he didn’t invent it!
Turns out it this was just a great synopsis of what I thought was a well told story.
Not sure what you have taken from this thread but my .02. Hate the ramp test. I do it correctly but my ftp is never correct when i do it. My 8 minute and 20 minute tests are way more accurate inmo and when i do those two tests my numbers are extremely close. Maybe that can get your training zones more dialed to benefit your training needs, as you see fit. For me, i am a marathon mountain biker, SS is my bread and butter with a healthy does of Threshold. But just an example for you to see.
I’ve now done a couple of SS workouts (@ current FTP) and they are becoming easier. I can now hold 8 minutes at 90-95% so I think some of my previous workouts I had been fatigued coming back from holiday and end of cross-season.
First crit race today. It was punchy from the start so actually ended being more of a time trial. My Garmin recorded a new FTP of 205 (previously 202 which was under some debate … understandably) and some new records:
20 min power - 202w
30 min power - 196w
45 mins - 191w
(the race was only 50 mins so no hour power)
Do I take this new FTP, assume my power zones are actually on target and I just need to train more in SS?
Having said all of the above - this race was a struggle. Total opposite end of the spectrum to my preferred style where there’s lots of breaks and then dips and the course was really open (windy) and long.
Little update from me. Almost 9 weeks on and I’ve stuck with it. I kept my FTP at 205 and really worked on my SS efforts.
I just checked back to the calendar mid-Feb and I felt pretty good having completed 3 x 8 mins of SS. Today, I can easily stick in multiples of 20 mins at a time on the turbo and out on the road I am holding my FTP power for 45 - 60 mins during weekend group rides where I’m not going all out.
I haven’t tested again but it now feels like this FTP is a realistic and comfortable number for me. I have a time trial in a few weeks time so hoping this will produce a new FTP. I don’t actually expect it to be a lot higher as it’s not something I’ve been specifically working on but with a small increase I can start pushing to the next level (close to 4w/kg now).
