Working above vs below FTP vs time

I guess that’s fine, but if sweetspot is the limiter for him then I think that’s what he should work on.

I guess I just had a revelation as well. Currently my FTP is set at 275 and I’ve been doing 268/290w over-unders in McAdie -1 and they were pretty hard (4, 12-minute sets). If I struggled to hold the last interval at a 271w average then I need to adjust my FTP down to <240w. With a 240w FTP that workout will put me at 228 / 252 which sounds more like “sweet spot” and will definitely be easier to complete.

Yes, I’m not suggesting what to work on, just that when working on VO2max, the intensity should be altered to suit.

Doing longer sweet spot intervals may well be the best thing in this case.

Mike

Having said all of this and looking back over previous workouts I think last night’s ‘test’ was slightly out in that it’s come off the back of 2 weeks complete rest. I’ve looked at other workouts and I’ve completed 15-22 mins @ 85% without issue (but not repeated time and time again to make up the whole workout).

I’m going to give myself another week to settle back in. Get some data from the race and take the longer 20 min FTP test. I did suspect Ramp test targeted my strengths so it was going to yield a more positive result.

Sustained power is definitely a limiter for me. Originally I just thought I was lacking in power but I don’t think that’s the case. The power is there when I need it to be for Crit sprints or climbing short hills in CX (<30 secs) but I cannot hold it and then have to fall into a much lower state which puts me on the back foot.

I think it takes time to really dial into what limits you and it’s always a bit of trial and error but it’s continually exciting to take on new challenges and see where they take you!

Really appreciate everyone’s comments.

“He’s” a “She” btw :wink:

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Where’s coach Chad on this?! Chad, has mentioned on a few episodes now that FTP for the most part is just a baseline.

Unless you are actually training “hour power” the reality of FTP being the level of power you can sustain for an hour is misleading. If you are testing and this is the number TR is giving you as your training level stick with it.

As for being dropped in races, what’s your nutrition like? Are you taking on carbs while you ride or just drinking water? What’s your pre-race regime like? Are you tail gunning too much? Are you attacking or pulling too much?

As for workouts why not try focusing on the subthreshold areas, “over unders” I find are a huge help as we often neglect variance in cadence and power output. O/U workouts can allow us to work on cadence range and the ability to put out power and “recover” just barely under FTP.

I don’t know if you’ll find that one perfect answer but I’m certain you can find a few good points in this feed of things you maybe haven’t considered working on and they can help you grow.

Otherwise just keep lining up and getting your teeth kicked in, you’ll make gains no matter what!!

J

Yes, I listened to that podcast! I’ve listened to them all :nerd_face:

I worked on my O/U in the last build phase. I enjoyed them, similar to my VO2 max efforts so again I’ve not included them currently as assumed they weren’t an area I struggled with.

I’m pretty good with my nutrition. Well, one can assume so since I’ve been through all variations of what works and what doesn’t. I don’t have my long ride nutrition nailed (more fuel needed I expect) but for races I’m so well drilled (I’ve raced every week for the past 15 in CX and prior to that most weeks in crits or TTT’s). Outside of racing I’m pretty strict on my calories and macros.

I think I probably undersold my improvement from when I started 2 years ago. I don’t want to overhaul everything - there are certainly areas I’m now much stronger at. I have come from getting dropped in pretty much every race to being up there on the podium and actually being competitive. I just want to improve even more!

Aside from trying to improve my sustained efforts I want to try and be a bit more tactical in races. The chances of me getting dropped are now much slimmer so I don’t need to be at the front, chasing all the breaks and wasting all my watts! I also don’t need to race as much this season as I think I was probably carrying a lot of fatigue into the races by the end of Sept. I ride as part of a team so as individuals we’re not always in the race for ourselves - we may have a specific target to block or enable another team member to get points.

So much to think about! I really really enjoy it :slight_smile:

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Nope, it’s universally accepted that ftp is the power someone can sustain for between 40 to 80 mins. Most descriptions you’ll see will state 60 mins. It’s not misleading in the slightest and the Ramp test will try and estimate this power. However, in my experience, and a lot of others using TR, it doesn’t give an accurate number. This is the issue with the OP. She’s using an ftp where she’s unable to hold 90% for more than 2 x 10 mins. That tells me something isn’t right and means she’ll be thinking she’s doing one type of workout, for instance sweetspot, but in fact she’ll be doing an ftp session (or higher still!).

In my opinion, the best way to check the Ramp test is by doing an FTP session a few days later. I’d suggest Lamark which is 4 x 10 mins @ ftp with 2 min recoveries. If you can complete that without any issues and feel you could do at least another interval then your ftp is probably set right.

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Have to disagree with this. If you’re in a situation where you can’t conceivably manage close to an hour at your FTP, or at least 40min, it’s not your threshold. Unfortunately, FTP has become a vanity metric (consciously or not) for many and they’ll hang onto the highest number they feel they can justify trying every protocol in the book. It has become THE marker for improvement. A quick skim through the TR forum bears this out.

Fortunately the OP seems focused on performance improvement rather than ego and is readjusting to train more effectively.

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Perhaps I am slightly more fortunate as a woman in that we have quite a wide range of FTP’s (and P2W) within our race community that it’s not something we talk about to each other or compare. Having a power meter on your bike is only now becoming a little more common. We just get a feel for how each other work within the team and strengths/weaknesses. I could not tell you where the other girls sit in terms of FTP. I might take a quick glance at their max power after a race if they have PM but aside from that it’s fairly irrelevant. Particularly in CX where so much is down to technical skill and very course dependant.

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Well of all the things mentioned that can be influencing factors in the riders performance you’ve held onto to the mention of FTP and that’s fine.

FTP is an ESTIMATE of your power or lactate threshold for a duration between 40-70min. But to say that is a hard and fast rule I wouldn’t say is true. Looking at the introduction of VLa max we now know that we have a movable marker for high power output. Depending how the individual trains could have more or less influence on threshold power and perhaps be aiding them in being a better sprinter with a very high VLa max but not enough emphasis on threshold power?

10min intervals aren’t for everyone either and I would say that 10min efforts are a pretty lofty start point to prove anything, especially at 2min recovery valleys, that should be hard for anyone. Maybe the individual has to make separate assessments for outdoor and indoor FTP?

“My opinion” there’s way too many variables at play to suggest this is an FTP based problem.

J

Sorry dude, your other suggestions are reasonable but she also clearly describes muscular endurance being her main limiter in the OP and then later goes on to say that she can’t do 10 min sweetspot intervals.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought the whole point in finding out your ftp is to set specific training zones. Granted, when working above threshold the amount of time someone can sustain in relation to their threshold power will vary ie some people can quite comfortably do repeated 3 min intervals at 120% ftp while others will need to dial this down as their ceiling is much closer to ftp.

However, please again someone correct me if I’m wrong, the zones up to and including threshold are fairly standard and are generally used in conjunction with your ftp. It’s generally accepted that Threshold intervals (95 - 105% ftp) should be between 8 - 30 mins in length. Sweetspot, I know TR has shorter intervals, but away from TR most coaches will get their athletes doing 20+ minute intervals up to well over 1 hour at sweetspot. So, and I feel like I’m banging my head against a brick wall repeating this again, if the OP can’t complete 2 x 10 min sweetspot then her ftp is too high and her training zones are out of whack. She’d be better off retesting using the 20 min test. With her ftp set correctly she could then address her muscular endurance weakness by doing actual sweetspot intervals instead of grinding herself into the ground, failing workouts and getting disheartened.

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This may well be semantics, but to me FTP and MLSS are equal by definition, it is the test results that are an estimate. If that estimate is wrong you should adjust it, rather than accept that it is correct.

I’ll put this here regarding the 20 minute test:

To get an estimate of FTP from the 20 minute test you have to complete the following: 5 minutes all-out effort, a rest period and then a single 20 minute ‘interval’ at 105% of the FTP that you get as an estimate.

How, after completing that, is it possible that a rider couldn’t complete 10 minute intervals at a lower intensity? Even although the result may be incorrect, as in a poor estimate of you FTP, the relative efforts mean that the 10 minutes at 100% can’t be harder than 20 minutes at 105%.

If there was one thing to be picked up from the Fast Talk podcast on VLamax, it’s that FTP has nothing to do with the max power you can hold for short periods of time. The point was made that cyclist appear to be particularly bad for hanging onto the largest number they can justify, even when you can’t hold it for 10 minutes.

Mike

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Still reading and all really interesting.

I know HR can be variable but I still like to us it in training so a couple of questions in relation to this.

  1. Assuming Sweetspot is 85-95% of FTP (apologies, my numbers may not be exactly right) then anything below this is ‘Endurance’ and lower still ‘Recovery’? There’s nothing in between Sweetspot and Endurance? I realise there are scales in both of these.

  2. How should you feel, approx what HR zone should you sit in at (let’s say the low end) of Sweetspot? Currently my endurance rides (65-75% of FTP) I can quite happily work in Z2 HR for up to 2 hours. We’ll just assume my HR zones are correct for now as that’s another topic! It actually happens that my HR usually tracks along the same line as my power in most rides up to about 85% FTP then it jumps higher. I think that’s just one of those things. Should I sit in HR Z3-4 during Sweetspot if performed correctly?

TIA.

Sweetspot is a relatively new “zone” which hovers between high tempo and low threshold. So your power zones are generally:
Active recovery <55%
Endurance 56 - 75%
Tempo 76 - 90%
Threshold 91 - 105%
VO2 Max 106 - 120%
Anaerobic 121 - 150%
Neuromuscular n/a

Haha, yes you’re quite right! The trouble with heart rate zones is that different people are using different methods to calculate the zones, so I’m only really qualified to tell you what I find.

First off, I use the method prescribed by Friel which takes the average of the last 20 mins of a full out 30 min effort and then calculate the zones from that. I have found that over the years I get roughly the same number so haven’t tested in quite some time as it’s pretty brutal!

So, in answer to your question, when I’m doing a sweetspot effort I’d expect the first 5 mins or more of the first interval to be in zone 2 and then it would creep into zone 3 for the remainder of the interval, unless I am doing the high end sweetspot intervals 93% and above. I’d then expect to see my heart rate straddle the two zones depending on cadence. 95rpm+ and it will be in zone 4. If I take it down to 80rpm or less it might even drop back into zone 2.

With 56 - 75% ftp you should be able to ride for up to 4 hours or more.

You talk about your heartrate rate jumping high when you reach 85% of the number you’re using as your ftp. What zone does it go into? Does it keep rising? How do you feel at that point? Does your breathing become far more pronounced? How long do you think you could hold that effort? If this change in effort is so noticeable to you then it could be just above ftp. For me it’s like a switch, currently I think I could ride at just over 250 watts for 40+ mins but I know if I upped that by 10 watts I would start to spiral well before that duration. My heartrate would keep rising and no matter how much I’d tell my legs to shut up, I’d have to stop. That’s what riding just above ftp feels like.

Obviously this is just what I find, it may be different for others.

What I would say is that lowering your ftp to complete those sweetspot efforts you’re struggling with doesn’t necessarily mean you need to lower your top end intervals. If you can do 2-3 mins at 120% of your current ftp then carry on doing them at the same power value. Look at it in a positive light, you’re pretty awesome at VO2 max which suites the type of rides you are doing. To add another string to your bow, work on muscular endurance a bit more if you have the time. Just retest to find out a true estimate of the power you can sustain for 40+ mins so you can then complete suitable workouts.

Good luck with the rest of your season!

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If you struggle with SS – the first thing I would do is re-assess your FTP. Then I would use the Carson progression.

Carson -1 or Carson -2 is about as user friendly as sweet spot gets. Once you can pull those off…I would move up the ladder to longer intervals.

I’ve often thought about targeting SS or Threshold to make sure my muscular endurance it peaked out – but I get soooooooo bored and antsy during intervals over 10 minutes. But if you can take the grind mentally, it would be an interesting way to structure your training for a couple months.

Good luck :slight_smile:

Couple of things…

  1. as others have mentioned on the forum, Sweet Spot was never intended to be intervalized. Best to think of SS like an Endurance ride on steroids. You don’t do 15min Z2 intervals, do you? The “original” protocol was to go out and start at near-100% then keep dropping down the power only when fatigue sets in, stopping in high Z2. The result should be a continuous ride within the SS zone.

  2. the mental grind – as I have mentioned on the forum, your workout needs to match your goal. I started SSBHV2 and it drove me nuts, I couldn’t stand the rinky dink short SS intervals. Once I restructured the total minutes of SS within the plan to much longer intervals – ones which supported my over-all goal – things got much more enjoyable.

If you want to max out your muscular endurance then start doing much longer SS rides, 30+min, but always reminding yourself of your goal and purpose.

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I’m not sure I exactly get your point – but are you suggesting rides like Wright Peak?

Do you have an example workout to illustrate your point? Thanks, man.

Wright Peak is a good place to start.
A quick search found the following long SS workouts:

Virginia +3

Spruce Knob +1

Reynolds -2

Pioneer +1

Phoenix +1

Farquhar

Needham – I really want to try this one!

Or…just pick any 45min-1hr Endurance ride and up the intensity.

(Note: play around with the search function cuz workouts can be mislabelled, e.g. SS as Threshold)

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Funny how my brain can over-complex-ify something that has a super simple solution…

Thanks!

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My pleasure. Enjoy!

And don’t worry about getting bored, you’ll have plenty to focus on during the latter parts of those long SS rides. :wink: