⬆️Weight -> ⬇️VO2 -> 📉FTP -> ⬇️Motivation

[mserra]

Hello guys!
Not sure where to start, basically I’ve been a self coached athlete for a long time and this year I wanted to try to find some more gains and also relieve the time I was spending analyzing and scheduling my training, hence why I chose to sign up with TR.
I’ve created my Custom Plan with a few scheduled races with A,B and C priorities and I tried to be as compliant as possible with the plan.
Regarding training I also introduced this year 2 things that matter into the subject, Heat Training and Creatine.
For the Heat Training and trying to follow the Core Sensor protocols, I was choosing some other TR Alternative workouts with less duration so that I could get in around 45’ Heat Session right after the TR session in order to avoid overtraining and not to add stress to the plan.
In the picture below you can also see my last 2 years span of training as an overview, where the TR sign up is also marked. My ever best FTP is also highlighted in the picture which was achieved by the end of last season.

There are a few things that are now making me worried and starting to believe that might be the culprits of not evolving at this stage:

• I’ve mentioned starting to use Creatine at the start of this year (3gr/day), I thought my weight increase (as you can see in the picture) was caused by Creatine, but I stopped it by the end of April but there’s no effect on that, so Creatine is not the culprit of my weight gain. I could not also see improvements in short term power, despite breaking my record this season for 3 min (+4w)
• Heat Training should also bring some performance gains, I felt better in races for sure without being prone to cramps, but I could not see improvements in power. (I’ve been around 90-100% adapted in Core Temp App, I’m from Portugal so temperatures here around this time of the year are easy to keep these values high)
• Given my steady weight gain (let me also refer that my nutrition is the same as last years), the VO2 is getting lower and I suspect that it can be blocking my steady power values hence why I might be limited on increasing my FTP (was 318w but came down to 316w as TR AI suggests).
• Another thing that I’m thinking of and suspecting that’s causing the weight gain is the training volume that TR suggests, lower than what I was used to, even the easy/endurance workouts that recommend no longer then 1h30, I think that my body is not burning enough fat, hence the steady weight gain → lower VO2 → lower FTP ?!

Given these details, when I show up in races the results are far away from what I would like and given that the numbers are not improving, my motivation is getting knocked out, then it’s a snowball.

I understand the idea of less volume to avoid overtraining, but honestly, I’m a 39er software engineer and my daily job allows me to recover well from training, but I believe the low volume is getting me slower in this case.
For now I’ve changed the plan for the rest of the season, and I’m manualy increasing the volume at the weekly schedule, reducing the 3 intensity days to 2 intensity days but still pushing the plan approach to Agressive (as it was before).
This is also the time of the year where I’m used to raise my FTP (possibly because of our heated summer) so I’m hoping to see improvements and definetly start the weight loss phase, going back to Creatine again since it wasn’t the bad guy either.
2 or 3 more races to go and I would like to get good suprises there…but I don’t know…

If you guys want to discuss or help in some way, let’s go for it

[PolkaGui]

By how much did you change your volume?

[mserra]

Maybe this chart can give some insight into the volume.

As you can see in the previous season and around the same months, I was getting a steady volume between 600 - 700+ TSS. Signing up with TR it went down a bit, 450 - 650 TSS. Some weeks higher others lower because of races and/or Heat Training.

Below is TR Check Volume recommendation:

And down below is the change that I’ve decided to move on to, after these past 4 months without improvements:

[PolkaGui]

So you went from around 15 hours per week before TR to around 8 hours per week?

Personally, I ignore the volume recommendation from TR. I know what amount of hours I want and think I can do and then I just select that amount in the Training Plan. TR usually says that my volume might be too high, but I ignore it.

I have multiple ways to monitor my fatigue and if I think there might be too much fatigue, I take a break or cut down the intensity.

[mserra]

Yes, somewhat like that.
But I don’t think the low volume would be an issue if it wasn’t for the suspicion of the weight gain probably caused by a lack of longer easy/endurance workouts that are proven to burn fat.
I did thought that the weight gain could be on lean mass, but then an increase in power would be supposedly noticed right? But I don’t see it that much.
The lack of getting hold of the competitors’ wheels in races on those medium to long climbs with an additional 3 to 4 kg this season might be getting me demoralized.

Some could also argue that if TR is suggesting less volume/load, then the nutrition should also be changed… But I already try to do it at least in preparing the food for the next workout (less kcals intake for easier days, the opposite for harder days), but it’s something that I was already doing the past seasons.

[Caro.Gomez-Villafane]

Hey @mserra

First of all, HUGE kudos on your training history!

I was looking at your screenshots, and you mentioned that you pushed the training approach to Aggressive, but in the screenshot, it doesn’t look like it:

When replicating your plan, here is what the aggressive approach suggests for you:

This actually looks right on the spot for you!

If you can, could you explain if you thought you had the training approach on aggressive, because we might have found a potential bug :ladybug:

[ChefAcB]

Dealing with weight gain; have your average steps gone down this past year? Did you strength train ever in the past and then stopped?
What I’ve found in my own experience of gaining weight it comes down to those 2 things. Sure volume could be a cause as well.
Weight training maintains muscle mass and the denser your muscles the more calories that are needed at baseline. The same with steps, i had a job where I was getting easily 12k steps a day and now I average about 8-10k a day. That change u noticed a change in how much I should be eating.
Anecdotally i have to adapt how much I’m eating to how much activity you’re doing outside of cycling.
I strength train at least 1 time a week full body and 1 day of core with some push-ups. Whenever I stop I notice I’ll gain weight down the road, I never stop anymore.

[mserra]

Hello @Caro.Gomez-Villafane, thank you for your feedback.

Something is weird, I was sure that I set the inital Plan as Aggressive…maybe what happened was that I used the feature “Check Volume” (which sets it again to Balanced) and I didn’t noticed that change. I’ve made the changes again to that plan, saved it and then the plan is set as Balanced…that might be it.

For a test I’ve just created a new plan starting on October, not to mess up with my current plan. When creating the plan with an Aggressive approach, it shows me 8h/week and 437 TSS/week … That’s really on the low side that I can handle for sure!

If I “Check Volume” on that plan, it goes straight to the Training Schedule tab with a Recommended Balanced Training Approach. If the user doesn’t like or change something in there and move on, then the plan is changed from Aggressive to Balanced.

Also, in my current plan, when I click it either on the plan or even the phase, I cannot see which Approach was assigned to it when I created or edited it.

It would be nice to see that, because weirdly again, when clicking on the Test Plan that I just created, it shows the approach.

Hope I could help you find a possible bug ?!?!

Still, the screenshot you’ve presented to me I believe it’s on the low side, at least for the longer endurance ride on the weekend. It’s a small change, I know, I see the recommendation as a guideline. For instance, the intensity workouts (like today), when I take them outside, I need to find a good spot without too much traffic to complete those 1h30/1h45 with quality, and in my location that means travelling at easy/endurance for 30min to the spot and back again at the end. So I’m already adding 1h or so to each of those Intensity days. The reason I’m setting those days with that time is because I’m already accounting for that, otherwise I would set those days with the time that I’ve available, around 2h45.

This to say that I strongly believe that it’s the lack of endurance volume that’s causing the weight gain and the consequential lower performance.

[mserra]

@ChefAcB I don’t think that the weight gain is caused by something outside of cycling training. My life is about the same for the past years, only cycling has been changing more or less at least looking at the bigger picture.
I haven’t been doing strength training for years, I could benefit from that for sure but that’s another topic and since I’m partially handicaped on my right arm (brachial plexus injury) and that’s a headache for me
The weight gain is a real steady gain throughout these months, I can’t see many peaks that could indicate something else compared to other years when I could see causes like more/less elevation, or higher/lower temperatures, or longer/shorter rides.

[Caro.Gomez-Villafane]

Perfect! Let me look into all this with the team and get back to you

[jkyle]

Creatinine water retention (weight gain) plateaus after a couple of weeks. It’s also water retention inside the muscle tissue. So it might be annoying for vo2max, but it does have measurable benefits to endurance and muscle recovery (one of the few supplements that can make that claim).

With weight gain, either intake has increased or energy expenditure decreased. How do you know your nutrition is the same? Doesn’t take much, couple of 100-200c surplus a day, to slowly put on a bit of weight.

When I change volume, I often have to be more meticulous with my nutrition till I adjust. That goes for increase and decrease in volume. When I increase a lot, my appetite and eating habits are too low and I’ll drop weight pretty fast. Same with a decrease…if I’ve been “training” myself to eat 3.5k calories a day and drop down to 2.5k…I have to untrain those habits and proportions or I’ll put weight on.

When I think of eating the “same” nutrition I think more of maintaining the core macro targets (mostly protein and fat being fixed) and maintaining my caloric deficit/surplus/balance depending on what I’m aiming for.

TR reduces time in the saddle, mostly aimed for time crunched type volume, but I think the metric to look at is your CTL/TSS numbers.

On a side, I’ve noticed when looking at intervals.icu I’ve drifted out of the optimal zone into the grey zone. Seems to correlate with when I started the specialization phase round about. But…my ftp has continued to rise, so I’ll give TR another full cycle and if it keeps going up I’ll keep riding the train so to speak. (also my ‘A Race’ is this week and it’s a one day 322km ride, so I kinda WANT to be pretty damn fresh).

[mserra]

@jkyle regarding Creatine and to evaluate the impact I’ve stopped it for more than 2 months by now, and I see no changes in weight, that’s why I’m assuming it wasn’t the water retention that caused my 3 to 4 kg increase in 6 months.

On the nutrition side, I’m stating that my nutrition is the same because my habits haven’t changed. The food intake is the same as before and I’ve also even spent more than 1 month weighting every single food I was consuming with a nutrition app to grant my caloric deficit, but I saw no changes at all. I could start to feel an empty stomach, but I don’t want that, otherwise my intensity days won’t work and it’s not beneficial.

So, as you also refer, if it’s not nutrition related, then it should be energy expenditure right ?! Hence my analysis on the lack of volume comparing to other seasons. I’m having smaller Sunday “long” rides, rides during the week where previously I was executing 2h30/3h of around FatMax and now with TR I just get 1h30/2h at lower Z2 or so. This is basically removing around 200TSS on average from my weekly volume.

[ChefAcB]

Weight gain is from eating a surplus of calories, plain and simple. If you’re eating the same amount of calories and gaining weight, you’re eating too much.
Maybe it’s your timing of meals in relation to workouts and not fueling workouts properly.

IMO, there’s a difference between an empty stomach feeling and starving. This is why I suggest looking at what time you’re eating and how you’re fueling workouts.

[mserra]

The timing of meals are exactly the same as before, starting with a small pre-workout breakfast 1h before, workout fuel as intensity/load demands, a small post-workout breakfast with more carbs & protein focus 10min after the session, lunch 2-3h after, sometimes a small bunch of salty peanuts as snack in the afternoon, then dinner at the end of the day 1h or so before going to sleep.
This is what I’ve been doing for years with more or less the same amount of food and even sometimes between meals, I do feal hungry. So I honestly don’t think that I’m eating too much.
I’ve tracked my calories intake around April, so maybe you can have more insight with these reports below.

[ingluis29]

If you’re gaining weight you’re eating too much, there’s no way around that. There can be significant error in food labels and calorie burn estimates.

*Obligatory not a dietitian disclaimer, consult one

[jkyle]

Can you plot your energy expenditure over time?

In my nutrition app, I can plot on the same graph my caloric intake, my energy expenditure (that includes exercise that day), and my weight. That would provide the insight needed I think.

If those don’t line up, e.g. it shows you’re consistently at a caloric deficit, but your weight is going up. Then something’s inaccurate. If you’re weighing food and logging everything (no late night chocolate and peanut butter ‘cheating’ ), then that leaves RMR and EE.

If the deficit is within 100c on average, you’re in the error zone for RMR and EE estimates. RMR estimates use height/weight/age and don’t account for very lean, athletic builds. If you were cutting for a long time and lost muscle mass, that can shift RMR by as much as a 150c while the basic, naive calculation remains the same.

So, you can get a DEXA and get a more accurate RMR based on lean mass. Or you can “tweak” your RMR to account for the discrepancy you see.

TL;DR

• Plot your EE over a few months
• Plot your energy intake (daily calorie total) over the same period
• Plot your weight over the same period.

Observe the trend. Is the trend consistent with each other? e.g. long term deficit tracks long term loss and vice versa.

No → adjust calories down marginally

Plateaus of multiple weeks is totally common. So you have to look at like 3 - 6 months.

If you’re already lean, I haven’t found a good way to track other than DEXA since the difference between 13% BF and 16% bf is often just a few pounds on the scale and varies with water or time of day by that much.

[mserra]

I’ve just got the data from April, the month where I tracked calories intake, and just made this plot. Given the short range of data I’ve ploted the data with a Linear Trend, and as you can see for that month the weight increases while the caloric expenditure also slighttly decreases, for the daily caloric consumption it also goes down at a higher rate.
The training load is also visible and as you can see it has an upward trend.

This is why I’m saying that I feel the need of more volume in my training in order to have the weight in control, alongside with the other adaptations. And yeah, I consider myself a balanced lean with 170cm height, 64kg (on the upper side today) and 39yrs old, so I also tend to see fluctuations caused by water retention.

[ChefAcB]

I’ve heard from sources, your body when training in endurance sport adapts to the work you’re doing. Also meaning, once adapted your body needs less calories overall. Endurance sports par down muscle fibers to make them more efficient.
I think if you increase volume that would help, but also try strength training 1-2x a week to maintain or increase muscle mass.
Another option, what are your macros? Try hitting 0.7 to 1 g/lb/day of protein a day and the rest from carbs/ fat. TrainerRoad has a lot of great podcasts on nutrition if you have/ haven’t listened to them.
It could be you’re not eating enough protein but eating excess carbs. Which can lead to more water weight and protein is very satiating.
Carbs are good around your activity but protein is good for making you feel full.
I’m only a certified personal trainer and not a dietitian, so I’m only going off anecdotal evidence and what I’ve heard from other coaches and some sources online.

THE TRUTH ABOUT CARBS FOR CYCLISTS | Dr. Kyle Pfaffenbach | Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast 528

[jkyle]

If I’m reading the chart right:

Starting Weight: 63.2kg
Ending weight: 63.8kg
Gain: .6kg

It also shows that your Expenditure is about 1600kcal and your consumption is 2200kcal.

The curves aren’t normalized, so the weight gains looks like much more relatively (which isn’t quite true).

.6kg is nothing to focus on. You can naturally fluctuate by that much even in a single day. The trend may be up, but unless you’re talking about at least a 2-2.5kg gain over time it’s hard to say there’s anything there.

The Expenditure vs Consumption says you’re consuming like 600kcal more…the weight gain doesn’t reflect that. 1600 is really low for an active lifestyle too. So I suspect that’s not accurate. For your size, if I were to just take a broad guess…2200 probably puts you int he ball park of your RMR + 1-1.5h of endurance activity a day.

Which, I’d say, is reflected in the relatively flat weight trend.

It’s also weird that the weight is a straight line.

Here’s the last 8 weeks for me. I’m not actively cutting or gaining, so it’s not daily weigh ins. You’ll note that the overall change is very small, 0.1, but on any given weigh in I fluctuate by as much as like 2.5kg. I can keep it less variable if I pay attention and weigh daily…like if I’m cutting for some event or other.

edit

Just to add…I’ve been in weight cutting sports a lot of my life. You a literally cut 2kg in a few days with mostly water weight. Those big fluctuations are often pre/post big volume rides or something.

[mserra]

@ChefAcB

It could be you’re not eating enough protein but eating excess carbs. Which can lead to more water weight and protein is very satiating.

@ChefAcB that might be the case too indeed

@jkyle the chart I’ve shown had a Linear Trend function applied to the values in order to understand the trend for those 30 days. If I plot it as is, it’s like this:

The expenditure in these charts only accounts for the workout, not the rest of my day. If I check MyFitnessPal which I can’t get a report from April, but looking at one of those days, some of those nutrition tracking days are like this:

@jkyle

.6kg is nothing to focus on

If you scroll this discussion to the top (the first post), you can see the trend of weight gain since last September that goes consistently from around 61kg to 64,5kg