Notices this workout in training peaks virtual. Of course with I’m fine with TR sorting my FTP. Has anybody ever done this ftp checker workout or something similar? Just wondering how accurate it could be really.
Not seen it but is an interesting find. Fair play. What it’s telling me though is that FTP is not some set scientific metric that corresponds to some unique physiological constant. But rather something that you should “feel” and that should be tweaked up and down to make sure you’re getting the right training. Have seen this vibe before. Interesting haha.
But seriously I have to say TR’s Ai move has actually helped me decouple from FTP as some innumerable number. And just get on with things. Was constantly chasing a certain w/kg target. But I race crits, still 6 months out from my A race, and now can actually shrug off the FTP chains and just get more power where I need it. More power = more better.
I wooouuulllddd be also interested if anyone does this test and if they “feel” the FTP number they come out with is close to TR Ai. I don’t think I’ve seen TP talk about “feel” before so that’s interesting.
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It would be nice if TR just created some actual FTP tests (although what they would look like is arguable), and allow people to follow some objective metrics to track progress over time. I’ll probably just start doing more 20 min and shorter max power tests for my own information.
RPE is king when it comes to guiding power targets for training.
It’s why if you’re going to go the FTP-test route to guide power targets, the first thing you do after the test is validate the result based on what you can actually do. And why many people who have been doing structured training for a long time don’t do formal FTP testing very often - it doesn’t usually tell you anything you don’t already know.
Workouts like this are great for teaching newer riders what they should be feeling in different power zones, which is a really important skill to learn and often isn’t emphasized enough IMO.
That being said, some of the intervals in this specific workout seem a bit too short to give you a true idea of if your power targets are set right. I’d personally want at least 5-10min for the threshold and below ones.
Pay attention to your body when you’re riding - how your legs feel, your heart rate, your breathing pattern, your state of mind, the ridiculous faces you make, etc
(I actually wonder if you could train an AI to predict FTP just based off monitoring your facial expression - seriously)
There is nothing more accurate at predicting how hard your body is working than the signals your body is giving you about how hard it’s working.
Learning to recognize these and what they’re telling you is important.
(Just like learning to recognize other body signals, like when you need to eat something, when you’re too tired for a ride today to be productive and you just need rest instead, etc)
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just because you can train yourself to feel out ftp does not mean it’s not based in physiology.
I’m not being obtuse, and I’m certainly not looking to open the FTP debate…but if there is not one accepted single definition of FTP, or at least a clear majority accepted wisdom (a la climate change science) I’m not sure how I can understand it as a definitive physiological marker). I’ve read an awful lot of posts on here recently going back and forth on what is FTP etc, and even here, there are a lot of knowledgeable people it seems and I can’t see a majority of 1 definition or another.
So my thoughts remain that it’s interesting to see TP teaching to feel out FTP. Interesting from the OP.
FTP is a proxy for MLSS or maximal metabolic steady state.
Generally most people can hold it for ~40-70m.
But if you have been riding for an while and know what it feels like you can feel it out in like 10m or so in my experience.
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Zwift actually has something similar:
It’s a nice gimmick to ballpark guess if the training zones might be roughly correct, but it depends a lot on the experience of the user. If you don’t know how a zone is actually supposed to feel for you, it’s hard to say if it felt right.
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It’s not so much about feeling your FTP, but about your zones. They are somewhat related, but it’s anything but an exact science. The only real way to figure meaningful measures out are scientific tests in a medical laboratory. With those, you’ll be able to figure out things like your your VO2max. But FTP is always a guessing game, even with lab.
In a way that’s also why TR only really uses “FTP” as a means to set up your training. IIRC, their “FTP” is not related to any real world interpretation, but just a way to represent where you currently are in a numerical way, so the ape brain can see number-go-up and feel good about it.
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There is a lot of chatter online about this, which makes it confusing. It’s probably best to go back to the original invention of FTP, over 20 years ago now.
This text contains the rational and thought process for the invention of FTP as a tool to guide power-based training. So buckle up and pretend it’s the early 2000s and you’ve never heard anything before these paragraphs about using power in training:
Power at LT is the most important physiological determinant of endurance cycling performance… As such, it is (most) logical to define training levels relative to an athlete’s threshold power… At least in theory, the most precise way of determining an athlete’s power at LT would be to rely on laboratory-based testing with invasive blood sampling. Very few individuals, however, have access to such measurements on a routine basis. Furthermore, while LT is often defined by sports scientists as the initial non-linear increase in lactate with increasing exercise intensity (Fig. 2), this intensity tends to be significantly below that which coaches and athletes tend to associate, on the basis of practical experience, with the concept of a ‘threshold’ exercise intensity. The latter corresponds more closely to what the sports science community has termed OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation, defined as a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L), but is really conceptually closest to MLSS (maximal lactate steady state)… In terms of understanding the physiology of exercise, it actually makes little difference which of these various definitions is used, since they are all highly interrelated…
Basically Cogan is saying, “there’s really no agreed upon definition of what threshold even is in the first place, but in my opinion it makes the most sense to use the concept of lactate threshold as the anchor for power zones. In practice this is a bit higher than what athletes and coaches associated with “threshold” intensity (whatever threshold meant in the pre-power meter era), which is closer to the concept of OBLA or MLSS. But it doesn’t really make a significant difference IRL as these are all closely related anyways. “
Given the limitations of laboratory testing as discussed above, probably the easiest and most direct way of estimating a rider’s functional threshold power (first time this term was introduced) is therefore to simply measure their average power during a ~40 km (50-70 min) TT. This highly pragmatic approach is justified by laboratory research showing that the power a cyclist can generate for 60 min correlates very highly with, but is slightly greater than, their power at LT (defined as a 1 mmol/L increase in blood lactate over exercise baseline) (2)…
Here, Cogan is saying that your average power for a 40k TT is a reasonable real-life way to estimate what your “threshold” power is.
An even easier way of estimating an athlete’s threshold power is to just measure the power that they can routinely produce in training during long intervals or repeats aimed at raising LT (e.g., 2 x 20 min at level 4).
Providing another potential way to estimate threshold power.
And that’s it.
“FTP” in its literal and original sense is just a rough but pragmatic way to estimate what your power in the LT/OBLA/MLSS region is. It is not a precise concept, but a pragmatic, back-of-the-napkin sort of idea.
Notice how he’s describing what FTP is - it’s the power you can hold in real life threshold efforts, where “threshold” in this era is in practice based off things like RPE (because PMs don’t exist yet).
And the only purpose of this estimate was the idea that power in the lactate threshold region was a reasonable and logical way to predict appropriate training zones for you.
If you wanna use some other point on the PDC curve to guide power targets, more power to you! As long as it gives you appropriate workouts.
If you have some other idea to test for what this rough power is, great! As long as it gives you appropriate workouts.
If you wanna forego power-based training altogether, and use HR and RPE, great! As long as it gives you appropriate workouts.
And the markers of “appropriate” workouts are if they feel right at the time, and if they are producing the results you’re looking for.
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TR has 3, Ramp Test, 20 Minute FTP Test, and 8 Minute FTP Test. Find them under Workouts, List, Workout Type: Test.
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At this point in my cycling “career”, I’m at the “it is what it is phase”. I’m happy to let TR detect my ftp and I’ll just focus on being consistent with my training and having fun.
but I definitely realize many using TR are far more focused on performance and racing than I am so i can see how people get a little worked up about the their ftp drop with the new app updates.
Here’s an other easy way of thinking about it.
Every FTP “Test” is an estimate of an estimate (or at least, that’s how I think of it)
FTP is the quasi-steady-state-power that corresponds to your MLSS. But, there are problems measuring lactate accurately, and as Coggan has said, it’s more of a continuum than a set physical point anyways. And then add in measurement error, and the day to day variability, and you’re not looking at an exact number. Everyone who thinks a 294 vs a 292 means anything is kidding themselves.
So you can think of your “FTP” as an estimate of your MLSS. But every test you use to quantify your FTP is also just an estimate of your FTP, (1 Hour Power, 40K TT Power, 95% of 20 Minute Power after a 5 minute anaerobic blowout, AIFTP, Ramp Test, Kolie Moore Progression, etc all provide different estimates of your FTP, but none define it)
Instead of “Testing”, once you get so you can feel that tipping point, you can just go ride near threshold and dial it in within a 20-30 minute interval, or faster if you’re already close. Coggan has said his go-to was just the 2x20 @ Threshold.
This TrainingPeaks Workout is designed to help you dial in the RPE for different power levels, and when you go from under/at your threshold, to over. I personally prefer warming up - then go ride at 100% for 10-15 minutes. Too easy - bump it up 5 W. Blowing up? Go down. You’ll narrow in on that 5-10W range…
Great skill to have and practice.