I only usually do a 1wk taper, so that looks really chill to me. I also don’t like to have a day off the day before a race. I’m not sure if that’s mental, physical, or a little of both.
Since you’ve gotten yourself this far, I’d say trust yourself and go w/what you think best. But since you’re asking, might I suggest moving the last run to the day before the race (7th) and shortening it to 30min. And add a 30min run with some strides on the 5th while taking the 6th off as a rest day. My suggestions seem minimal to me, but I’m just some idiot on the inter webs Bottom line, if in doubt, go w/your gut aka “original target plan”.
edit: explain why. body used to having intensity/workouts each week. taper is about reducing volume mostly. so add the day with goal pace kilometers. However, I didn’t want to screw around w/your plan too much so chose to add some strides instead. As for running the day before vs resting, I think it’s about rhythm. At least for me, sometimes the day after a complete day off, legs feel a bit stale and take a bit longer to get going. So, go for a short easy happy run knowing that the work is all done and that tomorrow you race!
Really about a 10-day taper, since I’m keeping my speed session on Tuesday.
Thanks for the input. I was planning to do the shorter runs at “race” pace, which is really high Z2 or low tempo for me, so that’s cool. And I’ve made your two changes since they seem to make a lot of sense. Looks like this now:
Speedwork question for y’all. If I’m doing one day of fast intervals every week in a polarized mindset, what’s the current conventional wisdom of how fast I should be doing those? I’m trying to understand the difference between “critical velocity” intervals and “VO2max intervals”, and not getting too far.
For reference, today’s workout was my best in years: 5x700m fast @ 6:45/km, with 400m rest intervals at roughly 10:00/km. My max HR is 186. Rest intervals brought HR down to 141 (76%) and the high-intensity intervals reached a high of 171 (92%). Each interval was HARD, but I did keep my times within 10 seconds of target (<4%) during each interval. Run intervals lasted roughly 4:45, rest intervals lasted roughly 3:55.
I’m trying to understand four things:
Right now, how to optimize the speed at which I run these intervals? I’m just touching 90% HR at max, but spending very little time above 90%… should I go faster? Or is this speed good for training my top end?
What should work-to-rest ratio be? I’m just over 1.2:1 right now. Should I stay near 1:1 so I can go harder then recover well? Or should I be targeting 3:1 or 4:1 ideally?
Over time to keep the workout challenging, should I try to improve the work-to-rest ratio (longer runs or shorter rests), or keep the distances constant but increase speed?
Is there any sort of speed testing I should do to optimize my results? Do I need to do things like hard 30-40 minute runs until I know what my threshold pace is? Or the Cooper test to estimate VO2max? Or is all of that “nice but not that useful”?
Clearly I’m a bit confused here. But it’d be a shame to work my tail off one day a week and not get optimal results because I’m setting the bar too low, or too high, or something. Any help appreciated!
The speed of your intervals is going to be relative to what type of race you are preparing for. For example, in preparing for a half marathon, my interval day range is 5k-10k race pace depending on how I feel. But if I were preparing for a 5km, I’d be doing 5km pace and faster reps.
Critical Velocity, VO2, Lactate Threshold… These are not black and white lines. It’s actually quite messy physiologically.
Perhaps, @Jolyzara or @Joelrivera can chime in. IIRC one of them is an actual coach.
edit: more thought on CV, VO2, LT, etc., again it’s messy. There is a lot of grey in there. I personally don’t believe that slightly above or below CV, VO2, LT, or some other marker is going to make or break your training. Also these markers are likely to move around day to day or week to week. So unless, you’re training in a lab, Get in the neighborhood/ballpark of what the marker is supposed to be training and I think you’re good.
Right now I’m just very overweight and very slow, and building (first) endurance and (then) speed. Can race 5K at around 8:00/km, 10K at 8:35/km, and last Sunday did an 18km training run (average HR 148bpm, ~80% of max), my longest run in 33 years, at 8:58/km.
I’m running my first half-marathon next Sunday, and I’ll be running the New York Marathon next November (2024), but I’m not really concerned about speed in those. Heck, right now I’m slower than the minimum-speed cutoff (8:31/km) for the Half next Sunday! In general, I think my ideal race is probably the 10K, with a 5K as my second-favorite distance.
@AgingCannon I may be taking the tone of your post the wrong way but I want to encourage you to not be so hard on yourself. We “are where we are” and all slow compared to someone else. You should feel good about what you have accomplished and looking at your post you seem right on track.
Training for a half marathon (or any distance) as an elite is a lot different than what most should do. And while most tend to focus on the exotic workouts the reality is, it is the traditional boring stuff like long runs that make the most impact.
So non-elite training… most important thing is your long run. At this point with the goal of just finishing, it is ok to take a walking break, stop for water, etc. The goal is to slowly increase the distance. To start off I would focus on duration of your run. For example if you run 60 min… next week do 65… the next week 70. (Stepping back for recovery weeks is needed as well). I would max out at 1:30-1:45. Even if at your pace that might be half the distance you don’t need to be out there longer than that. And as you get more fit the distance will increase. PACING: conversation pace. Best on forest trails.
Next for threshold… the most popular running threshold session is 20 min continuous. Elites do more but I think it is important to work on getting faster before stretching things out further. If 20 min is too much break it down to 3…4…5 min segments with short 30-60 sec recoveries. One thing we would do is Lane 8 Tempo. You run a 400 at tempo/threshold from the stager to the finish. Then your recovery is to walk from the finish back to the stager. Yes laps are boring but if you need to sit one out you can hop in the next rep. PACING: from your post probably around the pace of your most recent 10k.
Speed… this is in my opinion the least important (again, non-elite… for those running sub 5 min miles you obviously need it). You don’t need to go rip any 200s for a half marathon at this stage. One thing I was introduced to from a Swiss Olympic runner was straights and bends. During his lunch break he would run down to the track and do 3k, stride the straights and float the turns. He did them in a disgusting 4:40 mile pace but it was something he did to keep the turnover going. I took that and modified it into a 4 week training block to start our season: first week = 2k straight & bends. Week two = 2x2k… then 3x3k and then 4 x mile. By week 5 they are in shape and ready to hammer. Don’t know why it works so well but it does. Funny enough those 4 x mile straights and bends aren’t far off of VO2 pace come week 4. PACING: don’t worry about it. Stride the straights and go easy (but not too easy) on the turns. It will sort itself out.
Ok that’s a lot… biggest thing is to be consistent and stay healthy. You’re doing great and should feel proud of that!
Unfortunate wall of text here, but as an overarching thing, I think if you’re newer to speedwork the details aren’t super important- as long as you’re getting some ‘hard’ in there and you’re keeping the splits consistent you’re probably on the right track, with all of that being secondary to getting the mileage in and making sure you’re recovering well/not getting injured.
I’m not super familiar with CV training, but my understanding is that it’s slightly above threshold and below v02 max (around the intensity you could hold for a max 30-40 min effort, so probably around 5k pace in your case.) I’ve heard the term used interchangeably with ‘threshold,’ which is confusing, but I think that’s a question of pace vs. training effect- CV intervals are generally shorter/faster than the traditional 20 min continuous threshold effort, but the recovery short enough that the overall impact of the workout is similar. (closest thing I can think of in the TR ecosystem would be suprathreshold- you’re not riding at ftp, but sort of ‘targeting’ it anyway) You’ll typically see more challenging workouts build to higher TiZ, and/or shorter recovery periods.
v02 is pretty similar to what you’d see in cycling- either shorter 30/60sec intervals or longer 3-5min efforts with roughly equal time recovery and the work periods totalling around 12-20 minutes. In a somewhat overly simplified/practical sense you’re aiming to keep your breathing rate as high as possible throughout the session, and generally over time you’ll see a progression from more/shorter intervals to the longer blocks, though not much change to TiZ or work:rest ratio. (In my non-expert opinion, your workout would fall into this category- and looks fairly well executed at that!)
There are as always, too many damn ways to set training zones, but most commonly you’ll see a 5k time trial used- there are a few online calculators that you can feed your PBs for common race distances and they’ll give you a reasonable starting point plus a brief breakdown and some examples of what they mean by each intensity. (definitions can vary here, so it’s worth having a browse through some of the ‘supporting material’- I know the Jack Daniels and McMillan ones have some blog posts and videos available which give a bit more context)
Thanks to both of you for taking the time to offer such detail and depth. Much appreciated.
No worries on the mindset, @Jolyzara, though I appreciate the concern! I am aware of the good and the progress. In ~16 weeks, long run went from 7-8K with walking breaks to a no-walk 18K last Sunday at a slightly faster pace, and volume went from 15K/week to 40K/week. Plus, I feel good: healther, stronger, faster.
I don’t have a problem or a frustration, I’m just trying hard to learn a new skill. What you’re hearing is curiosity and confusion mixed together. I mention “very overweight [80 lbs, 40% BF] and very slow” to put things in perspective: I am not among the many fast runners in this group. I am a middle-aged, just-off-the-couch Dad. I accept that reality. I also intend to change it.
A small problem with my post, and I think @toribath noted this, is that I’m referring to “speedwork” once a week when I’m not really talking about sprints or high speed… I’m referring to very high in the aerobic range so I can improve both my VO2max (which my Garmin says is 35 ) and my 5K race pace. I may be misusing terminology out of ignorance.
This is why I posted and what I’m trying to learn. Both of these maybe sound like the results I’m getting, though my objective was a VO2max workout as @toribath describes. So, that gives me some great guidance and essentially leads to a single follow-up question:
Which single weekly workout (all other days easy/low Z2) will likely provide a greater benefit in helping me gradually go faster over 5K/10K?
Threshold, reducing rest times so I gradually work up to 20min continuous at 162-165bpm?
VO2max, keeing work intervals at 5min but gradually going faster and spending time at >170bpm?
Or is it valuable to target both and maybe do them on alternating weeks?
As @toribath put it, I understand that the importance is “getting some ‘hard’ in there” but as a very data-driven person, I’m happier and able to perform/improve better when I understand the why/how of what I’m ideally trying to do.
Yeah for sure, it’s pretty interesting to learn about and I think it pays to have some idea of what you’re trying to achieve
This is where it gets a bit hairy, Running can be a little different from cycling in that ‘race pace’ workouts are more common and typically regarded as your key hard sessions, with physiological adaptations traditionally being regarded as somewhat secondary- so usually the specific intensity comes about somewhat naturally as a result of the time you’re taking to complete the distance. (that’s why you’ll see a lot of running plans organised by goal time- depending on your pace those sessions can be in entirely different zones!) There’s also an element of periodisation here, but assuming you’re building to a particular race in the timeframe of most distance-specific training plans you’re probably looking at working on whatever best replicates where you think you’ll spend the most time during the race- from a glance, probably threshold for your 5k and tempo/high z2 for the 10. A lot of the approaches I’ve seen will rotate the race pace work every second week, with the other being something different, which means you get some different stimuli in there as well as managing total load, as the former can be fairly big efforts especially in the latter stages. (Composition of ‘other stuff’ seems to differ depending on the philosophy, but I’ve seen shorter/faster stuff as well as longer, lower-intensity tempos in there)
Both! 90’s was not a good time for American distance running… we did a lot of high intensity VO2 and not a lot of tempo or threshold. Things shifted late 90’s and early 2000’s with more emphasis on “tempo runs” and sure enough things got better.
That said for a “couch to race” program I think you can go a long ways with just running and strides. But a basic program might look like:
Monday - VO2
Tuesday - Training Run
Wednesday - Training Run
Thursday - Tempo/Threshold
Friday - Training Run
Saturday - Long Run
Sunday - Recovery Run
*Sub in a day off as needed for training run days.
Sorry, should have clarified. I race for fun only… my real goal is simply to become a decent athlete, as I was when young. I’d like to be able to comfortably do an Olympic tri, or do any one of the three distances of a half-Ironman, on any given day.
Don’t know how long that’ll take, but after next Sunday I’ll start riding the bike again and adding strength work, so there’ll be fewer runs in a week.
Thanks to both of you, I feel like I understand this issue better now!! Many, many thanks.
To add, this might even land as a bomb up in here considering this is Trainer Road, but currently a common view among many top players in the running world is that targeting “energy systems” or physiological markers does not work. So for example, there is nothing particularly special about running at V02 max, in terms of driving adaptations. Steve Magness’ book The Science of Running pretty much calls out the targeting zones as bunk.
The Norwegians might be a little different in that they train by lactate values. But, the bread and butter is high volume of work while keeping lactate levels fairly low.
PSA: I may have just missed out on next year’s New York Marathon. I was going to get entry via their 9+1 program (run 9 races + volunteer at 1) but I’d signed up to volunteer at this year’s marathon… and it turns out I’m going to be on a business trip on that date.
Right now, there are no other 9+1-qualifying volunteer opportunities left in the year, so the only way I’m going to be able to fulfill that +1 is if someone cancels their commitment to volunteer for another race and I catch it and sign up before someone else gets it. I figure those are pretty low odds, though of course I’ll do my best.
Obviously, boys and girls… when doing something like this, fulfill your commitments early! Not rocket science, but a good reminder that bad things happen if Plan A goes sideways when there’s little chance of making a Plan B happen. This little problem was entirely preventable if I’d simply gotten things done earlier.
Ah, you have way more flexibility/options then- you could work through blocks over a few months if a more structured approach is your thing (most commonly I see ‘base building’ involve mostly base running with a few short sprints/strides and hills thrown in, and then moving through tempo/threshold to a short period of high-intensity stuff to sharpen, bit of downtime and repeat) alternatively, you could target whatever you feel is your limiter, rotate through a few different workouts for variety, or just do what you enjoy- as long as you have some easy weeks in there and you’re building the mileage over time you’ll likely benefit in any case (and sounds like you have the basics nailed!)
Yeah, a lot of cyclists view running training as a bit stone age but I kind of like the simplicity and more ‘practical’ approach. I think it’s good to have a sensible progression as it’s pretty easy to overdo the harder stuff if you’re just throwing stuff at a wall trying to get ‘fit’, but ultimately it doesn’t need to be super complex. (I am a lonely track runner in a sea of triathletes though, different worlds )
This is probably going to be printed on my gravestone.
I wouldn’t say stone age. The whole notion of training “energy systems” using specific training zones on which the TrainerRoad plans seem to be based was publicized in the running world by Jack Daniels in the 90s, and even he has since revised his methods in later editions of this book. Simply put, it does not appear to be supported by any sound science, and most coached in the running world have moved on from it.
Back late 90s/early 2000s for workouts we did “date pace/goal pace” for 1500, 5k, 10k marathon, etc. We also did “tempo” runs. I don’t think we ever considered it zones but training a specific pace. The races dictated the paces (or should have… everyone still ran faster because, well, competitiveness).
I guess that’s kinda like zones but no one ever called it that. I haven’t read Magnus’ book. What does he recommend instead?
I’ve got to a sub 5min mile and a sub 6hr mountain 50km in two years (off the back of years of bike riding), just running with different groups of people. Sometimes its fast, often slow, always lovely and usually finishes with a coffee. I also run trails on my own at a really leasurly pace.
I do think people like to overcomplicate things rather than just do what they feel like on any given day. I don’t even have a gps watch, just a wristwatch that tells me what time it is. That’s enough for me right now.
I reccomend, I think it might be the best book I have ever read on endurance training (having said that I still not read all of it.)
Really interesting to see comparisons that transfer or are the same in cycling, rowing etc. Okay different terminology is used and its explained in a different way in each sport, but it is the same thing.
The book got way to technical for me when it dove into metabolic pathways and tried to model out fatigue; there’s no way I could have built up a training program myself. And I was getting out of serious running at the time anyway. But, none of his sessions are radical or revolutionary in any way. What’s different is the details of why he prescribes them, figuring out what sessions a specific runner needs, and how they fit into the bigger picture of a goal race. And that’s alway been where coaching is part art, part science, and if you get a good coach, you can shine.
Bottom line, if in doubt, go w/your gut aka “original target plan”.
Get in the neighborhood/ballpark of what the marker is supposed to be training and I think you’re good.
In general, I think my ideal race is probably the 10K, with a 5K as my second-favorite distance.
I mention “very overweight [80 lbs, 40% BF] and very slow” to put things in perspective: I am not among the many fast runners in this group. I am a middle-aged, just-off-the-couch Dad. I accept that reality. I also intend to change it. 
) and my 5K race pace. I may be misusing terminology out of ignorance.
)