The only thing shifty in this thread is going to battle against fat-adapted zealots.
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I agree with this 
ā¦
Except for those cases where there are underlying medical issues (thyroid for example) or medications that can cause weight loss/gain. Thatās why itās important to apply every rule to your situation and know your health condition in all cases. This applies to everyone-to perform you must know your specific needs. Because in some cases the body is weird 
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Right, this is a āYes, but also noā kind of thing. For sure thatās the immediate cause of weight gain, but it tends to lend itself to unhelpful suggestions like āyou should eat lessā, and hunger doesnāt really work that way.
This was kind of my point. Most amateurs riders are not ālean machinesā like pro cyclists / triathletes. They can stand to lose a few or many lbs. Also, most riding isnāt locked in at SS/tempo/threshold, etc.
If youāre a serious triathlete then it makes sense to train nutrition while doing race pace workouts (in prep for the actual event), but I donāt think 300+ calories (80g carb at 4cal per g) of sugar for a typical amateur rider (with a higher BMI) is necessarily a healthy choice and prob wonāt yield some huge benefit to make it worthwhile.
I definitely think if youāre riding 2hr + and/or doing hard intensity in a ride 1.5hr + then you should have some sugar, but otherwise itās not that important. Pro cyclocross riders race for 60-65min allout intensity and do not even take bottles (no food or drink).
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I have an ftp of about 300, and in 2:30 / 3 hour routes, I started experimenting with a bottle full of a mix containing 25g hydration mix (electrolytes, maltodextrin and fructose), 30 grams of maltodextrin and table sugar, so itās about 90 grams in all.
If I average 215 watts, itās comprised of one or more 30 minute Sweet-spot climbs, with descents of about 6 minutes coasting and light pedalling, then some punchy rolling VO2 hills in between (hardly any flats here).
I think I am averaging about 5-10 watts more in these rides since I fuel this way. Iām not on the full 90 grams an hour, but I believe that sipping some energy drink during the hard climbs helps. I think 30/40 grams an hour are helping me , compared to not eating anything on these rides. I also feel less prone to stopping to rest during these rides.
My question isā¦ Am I doing it right? Are these 2:30/3:00 hour rides the time to fuel with carbs? (I am not doing it full on though). Maybe the difference I see in performance and fewer stops is just natural progression, or āanecdoteāā¦
Thereās a lot of āKeto-scientistsā and a doctor who focuses on sports nutrition in this thread. I know whoās advice I will take.
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I think the chart in post #62 from something @Dr_Alex_Harrison wrote pretty much nails it. I personally go on the low(er) side to the chart most of the time but ensure I can handle the maximum as I definitely race towards the upper end. Your post notes the vo2 work, that type of stuff absolutely burns through CHO very quickly - so if there is an opportunity to take on more thatād be the time to consume more, and youāll probably perform better.
Note - I donāt have formal training in this stuff although I do have an exercise science degree with nutrition minor from 20 years ago. There are people that post on here that have much better knowledge, including a couple within this thread.
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There are diminishing returns to the nutrients provided by healthy foods.
I generally shoot for 40-50% fueling on just about any ride.
- 500ish kCals on a 1,000 kJ ride (IF at 0.90+)
- 1500ish kCals on a 3,000 kJ ride (IF at 0.70+)
If you do the math, that evens out to roughly 70-80g carb/hour.
So even with fueling, the ride alone almost always provides me with a sufficient caloric deficit (if weight loss is part of my goal that day). That leaves me with the entire dayās caloric allowance to make sure I get all the macro and micro nutrients needed.
The primary purpose of fueling a ride that doesnāt need fueling, i.e. that 1000kJ ride, is to lower RPE and prevent binge eating after the fact.
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Agreed. I feel people got confused when they heard on the podcast about using X amount of carbs in a bottle or solid during races - > long races. So they think, oh I need 90 grams of carbs to fuel this one-hour ss workout.
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I personally err to the low side on most rides, but just because you can go low doesnāt mean you should. I hit a new level of performances after really trying to up what I can handle. Most anyone should be able to get through a 2500kj ride without too much difficulty- but can you get through it and nail it better eating 900kcal? Yep.
You might be sufficiently fat adapted.
If itās working for you, thereās certainly no rush to change it.
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I think it has less to do with the duration and more to do with scaling the fuel requirement to the individualās level of fitness.
If someone with a 300w+ FTP is doing a hard 1 hour workout at Z4 or above, thereās no detriment to fueling 90g in that hour, regardless of whether itās providing any measurable benefit.
If another rider with a 200w FTP is doing a 1 hour Z2, yes, fueling at 90g/hr can be a problem.
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My last post was on the roadside and I was only able to skim the paper, hence I probably missed a lot of parts if it out, and took it out of context. But my point was more suggesting that its not crazy to not be consuming super high carbs.
Good to see not sharing the exact same view as someone puts you with the extreme opposite view. I make a high carb bottle for races and back ended efforts, and have for a long time used soft drinks in races and, when I was younger, refuel rides by topping both bottles with aswell.
Iām just trying to point out that maybe when youāre not riding full gas, and youāre not wanting to your body to be race day ready, maybe you donāt need such a massive amount of carbs. I donāt know of proās using high carb bottles everywhere they go, and if all carbs on the bike were the same, why would proās bother with solids like ricecakes?
I saw one person suggest it after you said this. So, it must be me being referencedš¤·āāļø?
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Do you know how many kJs heās burning per hour?
Do you know the ratio of carb:fat heās burning?
Because without knowing any of that information (which you canāt deduce from merely knowing his w/kg), itās presumptuous use the term, āoverloadingā.
I remember reading from @Dr_Alex_Harrisonās earlier posts that his high anaerobic capacity got him into the Cat 3s. Heās also a larger individual with a mean sprint, so I think itās safe to say heās definitely a sugar burner and heās finishing his rides with a net glycogen deficit, regardless of how much heās consuming.
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Lol I tried to say this is a less direct way, but totally agree. In addition, I am sure their average power is way higher which implies caloric burn much higher. Also, they need to ride 4-5hrs again for the next (20 something minus however many stages have passed already).
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Who said anything about āneedsā?
As for the TdF pros, Brandon McNulty averaged 250w today, 301w weighted, 4263 kJs. Thatās Z2 for him.
What do you think he consumed on the bike? Five grilled chicken sandwiches? Surely he didnāt NEED any sugars, riding in Z2 and allā¦
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The point is that heās riding the TDF and could slam 150g/hr and still be in a deficit over 3 weeks. Comparing that rider to someone on a trainerroad forum who is likely riding 5-10 hours a week does not make any sense at all.
Iām sitting here arguing for not throwing down quite as much sugar during rides, yet today I was out for 5.5 hours with some work followed by a little jog and I consumed 2000 kcal (actually 2100 if you count the Maurten pre run). The point? If that was a 90 minute ride Iām likely eating nothing. There is a time and place.
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Fair enough.
However:
What do you gain from eating nothing?
What do I lose from fueling 50% of what I burn?
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