You said what I meant in better words, thanks!
I said the same up above, but without the long explanation. I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, some people continue to post about VO2 without clarifying if theyâre talking about the Power Zone or the âIâm breathing like a fish out of waterâ activity.
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If youâre doing them right, changing your FTP target should have literally zero effect on your VO2 intervals. Your all out 3 min interval power doesnât change because you adjusted your 20min FTP interval target. You might have to go for 125% vs 120% but the effort and the absolute number would stay the same (I personally donât think you should have a power target for VO2 intervals at all, but thatâs a different discussion).
And I think if I used the words âpanicâ and âanguishâ to describe my effort during an FTP interval then any coach Iâve ever had would either give me an immediate rest week or drop my power target by at least 10W.
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I found this Empirical Cycling podcast episode for you all struggling with threshold intervals:
Jump to the 21 minute mark and listen for 5 minutes:
If anyone is struggling with an 8, 10, or 20 minute threshold interval you are over your FTP. Itâs not complicated or mysterious. Itâs not a psychological battle to do an FTP interval.
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Iâm an ultraendurance rider 
Same thing happens regardless of if Iâve been doing 10h weeks or 15h weeks. VO2 work is easy and I can do it immediately after even a few weeks off. Threshold work can go f*ck itself.
Iâm pretty sure itâs psychological. I am very ok with severe pain for short periods of time. I absolutely cannot stand even minor discomfort for prolonged periods. Something to do with attention span and how your brain handles reward processing.
Another way to maybe look at it comes from the anxiety literature. People with certain anxiety disorders (ex: panic disorder) tend to not tolerate high blood lactate levels. Lactate often increases during a panic attack, and patients with panic disorder are more likely to have significantly elevated lactate levels during a panic attack than those without. Essentially thereâs a signal that these peopleâs brains are overly sensitive to the discomfort of elevated blood lactate. You take a person like that and make them spend 30min with an elevated lactate vs 5min, and wonder what their preference might be.
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I see this mentioned a lot but I think it is important to define what it means to âstruggle.â Everyone has a different red line and pain threshold. Not to mention if you are really pinning it, that 40-60 min is quite difficult. I am thinking back to my running days⌠running 20 min at 10 mile pace (sub 5 min miles) wasnât a struggle but it also wasnât an RPE of 6.
Iâm just going by the struggles mentioned in this topic.
I donât know running but isnât FTP more akin to 1/2 marathon pace? I guess 10 mile is close depending on the level.
But since we are talking about cycling and FTP, Cogganâs definition comes down to âabout an hourâ. If people only have FTP derived from AI, ramp tests or even 20 minute tests then they probably donât have an âabout an hourâ FTP.
The first 8, 10, or 20 minutes of âabout an hourâ should feel pretty easy ⌠IMO.
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When I do test for FTP, I like the 2 x 8 minute protocol. From that you take 90%. Thus I do 2 x 8 min at 111% of FTP.
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Yup, I usually think of it as something like âyouâre working hard, your happy the interval is over, but you certainly could have kept goingâ.
But you donât have to go too far over threshold before youâre not even sure you can finish your single 10 or 20min interval.
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I agree with this. But again I wouldnât call it âpretty easy.â
I used 10 mile as it was 50 minutes for me. (In the middle of the 40-60 min range of FTP). Even running half marathon pace⌠20 minutes at that pace is not comfortable.
But bringing it back to cycling. Just did an XCO race that was about an hour. My first 20 min did not feel easy there either. And I have never done a Time Trial but I would imagine the pace is pretty high intensity.
I guess my point is that true â1 hourâ effort, or whatever you care to define it as is not, and should not be comfortable if you are maxing out. You should not âstruggleâ to hold that pace but it is a decent intensity. Or maybe it is the other way and people are under performing for 1 hour power?
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Ack, thank you for explaining, this is new perspective for me.
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There is a difference between âstruggleâ and âI hate this.â
If youâre hitting your LTHR 10min into a 20min âFTPâ interval, then you are struggling because youâre actually working above your FTP.
If youâre 20min into your threshold interval and still well below your LTHR and thinking âthis sucks I hate this Iâd rather be doing VO2 work because Iâd be done by now alreadyâŚâ then youâre me 
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I donât think I disagree with anything youâve said here. Part of what makes conversations like this hard is that everyoneâs subjective feeling is described or thought of differently.
Though something like an XCO race is hard to compare due to the spiky nature of the power output and since they usually start with some all out sprints for position from the start.
I think âcomfortableâ or âpretty easyâ is relative. It certainly wonât be as comfortable as a Z2 ride but 10 min into your first FTP interval should be easy compared to any VO2. Thatâs why I prefer to phrase it as âunder controlâ. Thereâs a certain feeling you get maybe 8-12min into an effort if you are maybe 3-5% over threshold that you donât get if you are even 1-2% under. Like the effort is running away from you.
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Totally agree here.
For what it is worth I really appreciate the conversation. As a long time coach (and athlete) I love digging into training and stuff like this and appreciate learning and hearing others opinions and experiences. I guess this is what makes coaching so fun and so frustrating! ha.
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I agree with this. Everyone should try the Kolie Moore FTP test once or twice.
If some think that 8 minutes at FTP is tough, try 40 minutes. 
Seriously, the best thing Iâve learned from the KM test is where you ride that line between sustainable and unsustainable. Once you feel you are in unsustainable territory, you back off 10 watts or whatever it takes to get back to sustainable.
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Somehow, iâve never felt more seen then ever. I look forward to VO2 workouts and absolutely dread thresholds. iâd rather do 20mins of 30x30 than a 20min at FTP.
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Depends on the prescription and workout intent for the 30/30s. 
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This is really fascinating - thank you. I think I fit into this category - Iâm definitely erring towards the anxious type so discomfort does bug me. For the folks saying my FTP is too high, but I am not sure thatâs entirely it as it doesnât explain the gap between VO2Max and Threshold performance. When doing the TH intervals I feel quite some difficulty, with fatigue in the muscles though with banging trance I can just about survive but Iâm in the process of building up the length of intervals.
@cnidos I googled anxiety and depression after cnidosâ first post. I couldnât find any kind of conclusive studies. Most of the studies were talking about panic attacks not just some anxiety.
The thing is, VO2max intervals send lactate through the roof - way more than steady state (letâs say 4mmol since that is what the literature describes).
Thus, it doesnât make sense that anxiety would explain finding a vo2 interval âeasyâ and a threshold interval hard. If lactate levels were an issue, then Vo2max intervals would be exponentially harder. Iâm still on the side of relatively high anaerobic capacity and an overzealous FTP.
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Or moreâŚ
Itâs an awesome workout in itself.
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